Cliques vs. Friends....

[coastswing]

I am on the Board of Directors for Gotham Swing Club. We have been asking for feedback about our dance to help improve it. It got me wondering when I read the feedback "cliquey". One of the feedback forms was a bit specific and even made reference to which 'clique' they were talking about.

2 things:
1 - If there's a situation where you find a dance with 'cliques', how is an event organizer to handle this? In my opinion, this is something above and beyond the control of an organizer. Other than providing the old staple to some dances "the snowball dance"/"mixer" (or whatever term you would use), to get people to mingle.

2 - Are there really such things as cliques? When I go out dancing, I call my friends and we might meet for dinner and go out. Besides having dance as one of our common denominators, we are drawn together for vast reasons. So we would hang out at the dance with each other. But the thing is, we don't refuse dancing with anyone, and if someone comes up to chat there's nothing like "do you not know who we are?" or "sorry, we don't mix with your class". I've never seen any exclusive behavior. Our group of friends has changed greatly over the years, so it's not uninviting.

Discuss......

[Dima]

Gotham is not the first to face that problem, and it probably wouldn't be the last.

Friends hanging out can't help but just do that. It all depends on how the group looks like as a whole. Few thing that pop into mind - unapproachable and uninviting vs. open and friendly. Not everyone is confident in themselves to approach a group of strangers to ask one of them to dance. That's where alcohol comes in. Unfortunately there wasn't any... :( Not to imply that we should all drink ourselves to oblivion, but it helps to loosen up.

Few suggestions I've heard to dissipate this is to have people make an effort to meet at least one new person at the dance, however that might not work, because being in a group is much more comfortable, requires zero effort, and puts you in auto-pilot mode. Snowballs may work, but personally I despise them and run away and hide whenever one comes on.

Good luck!

[WestieTash]

We've been doing snowballs for the past few weeks, and that seems to have helped the problem (temporarily).

For our club, I think one of the problems is that so many of our members have been dancing for YEARS. Consequently, they know exactly how high the turnover rate is for new dancers. I think some of our veterans don't put forth the effort to meet the newbies until they've shown they're not going to vanish after a few weeks.

[Jeanette]

The advantage that Gotham has in approaching this issue is that it's several people running the dance, not just one or two. So the attitude and approach of the group running the dance can gain momentum and affect the overall mood of the dance. If all of the organizers make an effort to mix among the crowd and mingle with a lot of different groups, that should be enough to improve the situation greatly.

Some of the people running the dance tend to have a specific group they hang around with, a specific spot or area they sit in all night, etc.

=Jeanette

[Cooley]

I don't know if you can ever get away from the so called 'cliques', as the 'outsiders' see them. Someone is always going to view a group of close friends as one. I've actually been having this discussion with some friends here in the DC area who see the people I hang out with at local dances as a clique. I tried to explain, as Michael said, that we are all friends who have BEEN hanging/dancing with each other for years, so we're obviously going to sit together and talk with each other. I've NEVER seen them turn someone away who came over into the area we were or refuse dances. I guess, I can see how the group may look like a clique or unapproachable, but short of us not hanging/sitting/talking or dancing with each other, there's nothing we can do to change other people's thoughts. Even when you tell them it's notnlike that, they don't want to believe you! People should just stop ASSuming these groups are closed off and just come say hi-you might be surprised!

[Eric]

I think Jeanette hit the nail on the head with the role of the host(s). If I were hosting a party of any kind, and I wanted people to mingle, it's my job as host to initiate that. Introduce yourself to new people, move outside your small group of friends, introduce people to one another. I'm not saying you have to do it all night, but I think part of the job of "host" is to do it at least some of the night.

As for non-hosts, I think this idea of "we're just hanging out over here, come and say hi" is problematic. You're saying with your behavior: "My door is open anytime, but you're not worth the effort." I'm exaggerating, and I know none of us thinks that (right??), but that's how it is easily perceived, and that's clique behavior right there.

And when it happens with the best dancers in the room? That's an elite clique, and your behavior can easily be read as: "Not only are you not someone I would go over to and hang out with, but you're not good/someone I want to dance with." Which I believe is just the opposite of how newer/less experienced dancers should feel. They should be dancing with the better dancers to help them - and the community - grow. (And I personally think better/more experienced dancers should set the stage for the community, since their comfort level is higher and they should have a greater appreciation for "what came before" and set the stage for them. Pay it forward, people.)

That said, I'm personally cool with hanging out with your friends at a dance - I think we all agree that it happens and it's okay - but I think that cliques develop when we stop reaching out and cut off connections with other groups of people. We constantly refer to our dance scenes as "communities" but communities are not small isolated groups of people (or at least I don't think they should be) - they should be interconnected groups of people.

So at the very least, if you see someone you know at a dance, someone who isn't your close friend but with whom you've danced before, at least go over to say hi. That small act makes a big difference. You don't even have to ask them to dance, but you've opened the lines of communication, acknowledged the other person, made them feel comfortable coming over to ask you to dance because you are a friendly person who says hi.

At best, you approach new people, and you ask people to dance. As with hosting, it doesn't have to be all night long, but every now and then.

Do you have a responsibility to do it? No. I don't think it's that urgent (though I personally feel some urge to build a community and help improve the dancing in my scene). But if you don't want to be considered a clique, reach out beyond your group every now and then. Worse come to worst, you wasted 30 seconds of your time, but made someone else feel a little more comfortable.

[swingdj]

Do you have a responsibility to do it? No. I don't think it's that urgent (though I personally feel some urge to build a community and help improve the dancing in my scene). But if you don't want to be considered a clique, reach out beyond your group every now and then. Worse come to worst, you wasted 30 seconds of your time, but made someone else feel a little more comfortable.

I'm curious.....would the group or individual(s) be considered a clique if they don't attend other dances in the city to try and build a dance community?

Victor

[Dima]

I'm curious.....would the group or individual(s) be considered a clique if they don't attend other dances in the city to try and build a dance community?

Victor
Are you talking about GSC board of directors? :p

[coastswing]

Are you talking about GSC board of directors? :p

Oh heavens no, this means I am part of a 'clique'. :eek:

[Khrystyna]

Being new to the West Coast Swing, I found many groups that were not mean but just no available.

Examples: When I asked a question to a person running an event. That person could not even acknowledge that I spoke to them. This happened more then once.

What I now do, always ask the new faces to dance and encourage them to come get me for another dance.

[Kelly]

Do you have a responsibility to do it? No. I don't think it's that urgent (though I personally feel some urge to build a community and help improve the dancing in my scene). But if you don't want to be considered a clique, reach out beyond your group every now and then. Worse come to worst, you wasted 30 seconds of your time, but made someone else feel a little more comfortable.

I have to agree here...I think that people from the outside looking in may consider or feel as though a group of friends is a clique, especially if they have been in the scene a while. I also feel an urge to improve the dance scene in my area and I'm sure that new people in the scene here feel as though i am part of a clique. I think that it would be a good Idea for people in this situation to every once in a while ask a new face to dance. But on the other hand I would encourage people who feel as though cliques in the dance world are unapproachable to also reach out and ask them to dance...

[swingdj]

Are you talking about GSC board of directors? :p

I'm talking about everyone.....in my opinion, it is everyone's job to build the dance community...how else is it supposed to survive??? That means that you attend other dances (whether you like the individual(s) or not that is running the dance). If you don't than the dance goes away and you are left with dancing at home by yourself.

Victor

[westcoastjunkie]

I wanted to add my 2cents:

1) I agree with Jeanette and Eric that hosts or greeters make a difference. Gotham has also from time to time used "Taxi" dancers -- regulars or veterans who volunteered to dance with anyone. They wore a button or t-shirt so newcomers and others would know who they were. I'm not a newbie, but I am shy and if I was at a dance where I didn't really know anyone I would love to see something like this.

2) If there is shortage of volunteers to be hosts or designated dancers, perhaps a small handout to newcomers providing the 411 of your dance and the west coast swing scene in general. Tips/advice like not waiting to be asked but to do the asking, drink/food specials; dance floor etiquette, where/how they can provide feedback to make their dance experience better, reminding them to not be discouraged as this is a hard dance to learn, etc.

3) Body Language. I've been around long enough to know that 98-99% of the dancers will gladly have a dance with anyone else if asked. For someone who doesn't hang out with a group, some groups some of the time seem unapproachable (to me) usually when they are in a circle or semi-circle facing each other and not facing the dance. I know this is unintentional and to some extent unavoidable. You're friends. You want to talk and joke and laugh with each other. However, if you're turned away from the rest of the room most of the time it may be a bit intimidating for others. I'm not intending to reprimand anyone, just offering something to keep in mind.

[Khrystyna]

Love that button idea!!! Great one!

[christina]

Gotham has been offering the Taxi Dancer program for a year now - after including information in our newsflashes and on our website we found most people won't volunteer in advance despite asking people let us know if they are interested, and our asking people directly if they'd be interested.

As a result we now keep the buttons at the door and hand them out to anyone interested when they show up. If you would like to volunteer to be a taxi dancer - just let the door people know.

I've done it a few times and have collected feedback from others who've done it. Most often we've found that despite the buttons, new dancers will not ask for a dance - you have to go up to them. But they do seem to appreciate it and are more comforable asking once they've been asked once or twice. The buttons open up an avenue of conversation and it turns out many new women are still of the opinion that only men ask for a dance. I've had to explain more than once that this is not the case in the swing community - that it's more than acceptable to ask a man to dance.

The major problem we've found with the program is that mainly women volunteer yet we're already follow heavy at most dances and most of those follows are new to dancing or to the scene.

[coastswing]

...Gotham has also from time to time used "Taxi" dancers -- regulars or veterans who volunteered to dance with anyone. They wore a button or t-shirt so newcomers and others would know who they were.....

The Board of Directors loved the Taxi Dancer program. We have had trouble getting people to sign up for it and it sort of went on the back-burner (stopped posting it in newsflashes, etc)....but this site will give a good opportunity in the local dance thread to round up volunteers to be Taxi Dancers.....Ms. Junkie, I'm hoping you'll sign up for us ;)....check out the thread when it's up!!!

[AllSwingDj]

THIS is the best attitude I have heard! For the last 18 years in the WCS community (and other dance communities as well) I have made it my goal to dance with AT LEAST one person I have NEVER danced with before and make the dance enjoyable to them regardless of their level. I am happy to report that this is a very reasonable and obtainable goal every night I go dancing.

Think about it; someone took a chance on you when you started, no? you OWE that debt every time you go dancing.

If we all did this the cliques would diminish.

greg




What I now do, always ask the new faces to dance and encourage them to come get me for another dance.

[Cooley]

Would the cliques really diminish? Does just dancing with a new person really change anything? It hasn't been my experience. Most likely, after that dance, you return to your area/friends and you are once again viewed as being part of a clique. I do dance with others outside the group, I sit with them, I talk with them, ect...but in the end, I still end of with my group-and even if I don't go back to the 'group area'-those newcomers or others who aren't sitting with us, who I even know and talk to, regularly, they still view the 'group' as the evil clique. My only point is there's is only soo much those of us within these 'groups' can do to seem welcoming. I'm not saying we shouldn't try, but my experience, in this area, has shown it to not mean much..

[David_D]

I've been a big fan of the food-related things that the StrictlyWestie people do. They used to organize dinner at a restaurant to get food before the dance, and post it on the site. It was really helpful to get to know a lot of dancers at once. Now, they have food options at the venue, which works too, although (IMO) not as well.

I suspect that part of Gotham's problem, though, is the layout of the venue. Because it's long and narrow, it's easy to stay in one section of the dance floor all night, and that re-enforces the appearance of cliques. The top dancers congregate near the DJ, and the DJ is all the way at one end of the floor.

Dave

[Khrystyna]

The food thing works. Some times a few of us will email or text each other to get together, but that does not get the new people involved. Maybe I could post where we are going for dinner each time before a dance and encourage others to attend.
:)

I can see how some people would not be willing to wear the button or offer to do it. Maybe assign 3 people at each dance? If asked sometimes people do not refuse so easy.

[westcoastjunkie]

The food thing works. Some times a few of us will email or text each other to get together, but that does not get the new people involved. Maybe I could post where we are going for dinner each time before a dance and encourage others to attend.
:)

I can see how some people would not be willing to wear the button or offer to do it. Maybe assign 3 people at each dance? If asked sometimes people do not refuse so easy.

I enjoyed the few pre-dance dinner outings that I went to, I'm glad I went, and would be happy to do it again.

I have to confess that I have declined the Taxi button once:o, because 1) I didn't need to save the $7 entry fee that is offered, and 2) I already always say "yes" and as the night rolls on I start checking out who in the room I have not danced with yet and try to make my way over. I can see now this is slightly flawed logic as a newcomer would not know this about me, and some people leave early. If asked to be a designated dancer again I will accept.:D

[coastswing]

I enjoyed the few pre-dance dinner outings that I went to, I'm glad I went, and would be happy to do it again.

I have to confess that I have declined the Taxi button once:o, because 1) I didn't need to save the $7 entry fee that is offered, and 2) I already always say "yes" and as the night rolls on I start checking out who in the room I have not danced with yet and try to make my way over. I can see now this is slightly flawed logic as a newcomer would not know this about me, and some people leave early. If asked to be a designated dancer again I will accept.:D

I'll make sure to ask you at the next dance to be a Taxi Dancer....but I do request that you wear those shoes you wore to Taj.....:)

[MikeRosa]

I'm talking about everyone.....in my opinion, it is everyone's job to build the dance community...how else is it supposed to survive??? That means that you attend other dances (whether you like the individual(s) or not that is running the dance). If you don't than the dance goes away and you are left with dancing at home by yourself.

Victor

Yeah That!! Although it can sometimes a lot harder to do!

[Alina]

Having been exposed heavily to other forms of dance (salsa in the past, competitive ballroom in the present), the WCS scene is VERY far from clique-y, in general. In a salsa club, they will most definitely refuse to dance with you if you're not in a clique and advanced leaders VERY rarely dance with beginner followers because it's not customary for women to ask men to dance unless they are in the clique with them. Specifically though, I've been around the WCS scene for about 2.5 years and I have observed clique-y behavior, still do, although, again, it's not nearly as bad as I've seen in other forms of social dance. I've seen top dancers refuse lower levels dancers maybe under 5 times and when I did see an instance of it at Swing Diego last year, I was pretty shocked, which says a lot.

What can we do about it? I think the ideas brought up above are all great. I think asking one newbie to dance per social dance is NOT a tall order for us more advanced folk, without waiting for them to ask us. I mean how many songs get played during a 3-4 hour dance, 30-40? Even 2-3 dances with people outside your group of friends, initiated by you, is only 10-15 minutes out of 3-4 hours. It's not so bad!

And yes, I promise to try hard to practice what I preach:)

[SoundInMotionDJ]

Having been exposed heavily to other forms of dance (salsa in the past, competitive ballroom in the present), the WCS scene is VERY far from clique-y, in general.

Agreed.

But, from the point of someone who is in a "clique" (such as it is...)

It might not be obvious for a newcomer to this dance...but most of the people at an event go waaaay back. I have friends who I met more than 15 years ago. We have shared cars for long road trips, and broken bread on many more than one occasion. There is more than one "inside joke" floating around.

Dance events feel more like a big family reunion to me (don't ask who I think the "weird cousins" are...if you have to ask...it's you. :tonguesmilie: ).

This is not a hobby for introverts.

Even so, the advice given so far is good. The organizers need to put on their "tour guide" hats and work to introduce new people into the group. Newcomers need to strike up a conversation and get to know someone at the dance.

I mean how many songs get played during a 3-4 hour dance, 30-40?

I find that in practice, I can play about 17 songs in an hour at a dance. So, a two hour dance is 35 songs, a four hour dance is 70 songs. For planning purposes...

--Stan

[jon]

This is not a hobby for introverts.

Beg to differ, this is among the best pastimes an introvert can have that still involve other people. No conversation is needed beyond "Hi, my name is <whatever>", "Would you like to dance?" and "Thank you".

[Burger]

I found an article on Swing Dancer Maganzine's website about cliques and friends. I thought it summed it up pretty well and would add nicely to this discussion. :)

http://swing-dancer.com/page.php?93

[christina]

I loved that article and was very happy when Amberlynn gave her permission to use it (and yes, I was more excited about the gummie bear photo).

In a discussion on a forum for a different dance, a friend of mine said the following - it follows the same line of thought as the article but helps explain the mentality of a seasoned dancer (conversation was in regards to bad dance experiences effecting our continuation of dancing).

This fellow happens to be very active in growing his dance community - he's a well know for all the work he does running a dance and supporting the dance online.

I come into dances with all sorts of baggage: what happened at work that day, how tired I am, whether I am feeling good or bad about my dancing, etc. Some nights I am gung-ho about dancing with newbies, welcoming people and being a general ambassador.

Other nights, I am feeling more fragile and I just dance with friends and my regular partners. If a newbie asks me, I dance with them, but I don't go out of my way.

Sometimes I'm feeling so fragile / annoyed that I just don't dance and hang out with my friends.

We all realize that the new dancers should be asked by the regulars and the top dancers. But we all have lifes outside of dance that affect how we feel at any given moment and we all have personal reasons for chosing to dance which also affect how we approach the community. One person joins for the social aspect and is happy with three patterns, another person wants to compete and focuses on that, some are there to meet people - You can't foist your reasons for dancing on others and expect them to act within the community under the same guidelines that you do or believe in.

I learned that the hard way. In a discussion a few years back - I wanted my friends to reach out to the new dancers. And they told me they weren't interested - they had had a long week and wanted to see their friends, dance with people who they knew and enjoyed dancing with. At the time I didn't understand it. The new dancers could be someone they'd enjoy talking to and dancing with if only they gave them a shot! But now, further down the road - I understand. There are nights when I just want to dance with three people because I'm working on something and know I can trust them to allow me that room. There are other nights, when I just want to catch up with a few close friends. Yet on other nights I can't wait to meet all the new faces and dance with them.

As a community leader your job is so much more difficult than the average dancer because you want what's best for you at any given moment, but you want what's best for your community too. It's difficult to compromize between the two when you are under a magnifying lense of other dancers who expect you to act a certain way - and frustrating when they expect you to act a certain way but won't do so themselves.

There is no easy answer to abolishing cliques or making everyone feel welcome. Everyone would need the same motives and opinions in order for it to work. Everywhere you go in life there are groups of friends and people with a different purpose. I think the best thing you can do is be true to how you approach the dance community based on who you are/how you feel and not to put expectation on anyone else, because ultimately no one is responsible for anyone elses happiness. Sure we can try, but we don't have the control to make everyone in the room perfectly happy.

[WestieTash]

The more I think about this thread, the more I realize there's no easy answer. My new thoughts:

First, aren't we all adults? If you want to dance with someone, ask. If s/he says no, oh well. Ask someone else. Are we really saying people stop dancing with a certain group/club because the "cool kids" won't talk to them??? Are we in middle school again? (Good Lord I hope not...those were not good years for my hair!!!) And while many of the solutions suggested here sound great, I'm just not sure they're feasible. We tried group outings, and guess who came....the same people...every time. It was like the clique went on a field trip. Think about it - if Suzy feels intimidated by the clique on Tuesdays during the dance, is she really going to go out of her way to go to a dinner with the same people?

Second, why are there groups of people not dancing? In my experience, the cliques are only noticeable when the music inspires people to sit down. When we have a rockin' dj, most people tend to be on the dance floor. So maybe a solution to this issue is ensuring a good music set for the evening.

My third and final thought....darn I just lost it. Guess I'd better get another cup of coffee :tonguesmilie:

[jssrabbit]

I believe the answer lies in intentionality. I listened to a couple of male dancers discuss a female pro (who I do not personally know) as being "so friendly" and "so excited about dancing with anyone". The exclamation was in HOW friendly and openly willing she was...which suggests that it is unique. This is not to imply that it is unusual or abnormal.

I have been on the receiving...and giving end of this issue. When I first started wcs, I came from ballroom, which seemed to accept me with open and encouraging arms. I remember feeling very outside and not "plugged into" what appeared to be the IN crowd of REGULAR dancers. My solution (as a female) was to make a concerted effort to put myself out there. Now, I am not remotely shy, but this was definitely outside my comfort zone!

I still do it today. I am a novice/intermediate dancer and I still have to stuff my insecurities about my dancing ability into a vault in the back of my head and walk up to a Pro (for the sake of this discussion, "pro" indicates All Star and above...or, "Really Good") and ask them to dance. This includes Robert Royston, Kyle, Jordan, Marcus, Jason, Michael, etc. Each one of them was polite and didn't give any indication that dancing with me was a chore (there is really only one pro, who is not named, who wears his irritation visibly). But I do not think they would have asked me if I did not ask them. In fact, I would be tickled pink if a pro actually singled me out for a dance!

...which brings me to the giving end. For nearly 2 years of the time I've been dancing wcs, I had a chronic illness. Dancing AT ALL was a monumental effort and tired me out. I couldn't make it through a night social dancing without having to find somewhere to sit or lay down. I began to conserve and save my energy to dance with people I wanted to dance with, people who would challenge my ability, who were fun, etc. I only had energy for a certain number of dances and I wanted to get these in. Eventually it got so bad that I couldn't dance at all for nearly a year (2007) and when I came back, I was like a kid in a candy shop. I danced with EVERYONE. And I was excited to do it! Then it hit me: I have seen this guy for years and NEVER danced with him! A couple of them made comments that they'd never danced with me. They were probably novice at best and quite literally didn't "make the cut". I was sobered by my actions. While I know I was not intentionally mean or exclusive about who I danced with...it didn't matter to the recipient. The fact of the matter is that I WAS exclusive.

So we can discuss the issue, the reasons, the problems, the attitudes, etc. but the bottom line really is intentionality.

MAD Jam was the first major event since I "came back" and started dancing again. I am working on getting my strength up and have to fight that urge to
conserve my energy. Perhaps there was an invisible "Unwelcome" sign, but it seems that now that I've changed my intention, everyone seems to ask me to dance. Anyone who doesn't...I ask!

[CALI DOLL]

This is all very interesting. I really don't know what's right or wrong. I suppose, like everything else, it's an individual thing.

And I can actually see both sides of the situation.

All I know for sure is that I'm a WCS newbie (dancing about a year) and I tend to fluctuate somewhere between shy and outgoing.

Personally, I tend to shy away from the advance dancer cliques that form at some places (I just don't get that welcomed vibe). As has been my experience, the "advance dancers" that I've gotten to know (admittidly because they've reached out to me and my newbie friends...not the other way around) have become really good friends/dance buddies and I like them very much.

So, maybe more of an attempt could be made from both sides. I dunno... :tonguesmilie:

[jlindo]

well said....both sides need to make an effort!!:rolleyes:

[KelKel]

Cal I'd have to agree with you. When I read the initial post I wavered on a response. I am new as well to the scene and I was definitely put off by what I perceived to be an "advanced dancer clique" but not just in my area. There seemed to be one where ever I went.

As time has passed though I've gotten to know ppl I categorized as being in a clique and found them to be friendly and really not closed off at all. So some of it is perception but let's get real some ppl do like the idea of being in a "clique". They enjoy the exclusivity of it but I think it's unfair to categorize an entire group based on a few ppl.

So as Cal said it has to be a two way street. A friendly smile or just an acknowledgement from time to time from both sides can make all the difference and means more than you probably know. I think once ppl have been in the community for a while they may forget how hard and intimidating it is for newbies. I also think it's unrealistic to think we'll all be best buds. Some personalities just don't mesh but putting forth some effort no matter how small to help newbies feel welcomed is important. :o

[lrsd]

Why not do an old fashion Barn Dance?

OK...stop laughing. Why not do a real fun dance that Mario did at a dance once. Not sure what the name is but you call out scotch, whisky, and rye alot and its realy fun! Essentially its similar to musical chairs.

[Dima]

I'm talking about everyone.....in my opinion, it is everyone's job to build the dance community...how else is it supposed to survive??? That means that you attend other dances (whether you like the individual(s) or not that is running the dance). If you don't than the dance goes away and you are left with dancing at home by yourself.

Victor

When I choose to go to a dance, to me it's less about who is running it and more about the DJ and the style of music they play or the style of music being advertised for the event.

[SHORTYJOY]

I think Jeanette hit the nail on the head with the role of the host(s). If I were hosting a party of any kind, and I wanted people to mingle, it's my job as host to initiate that. Introduce yourself to new people, move outside your small group of friends, introduce people to one another. I'm not saying you have to do it all night, but I think part of the job of "host" is to do it at least some of the night.

As for non-hosts, I think this idea of "we're just hanging out over here, come and say hi" is problematic. You're saying with your behavior: "My door is open anytime, but you're not worth the effort." I'm exaggerating, and I know none of us thinks that (right??), but that's how it is easily perceived, and that's clique behavior right there.

And when it happens with the best dancers in the room? That's an elite clique, and your behavior can easily be read as: "Not only are you not someone I would go over to and hang out with, but you're not good/someone I want to dance with." Which I believe is just the opposite of how newer/less experienced dancers should feel. They should be dancing with the better dancers to help them - and the community - grow. (And I personally think better/more experienced dancers should set the stage for the community, since their comfort level is higher and they should have a greater appreciation for "what came before" and set the stage for them. Pay it forward, people.)

That said, I'm personally cool with hanging out with your friends at a dance - I think we all agree that it happens and it's okay - but I think that cliques develop when we stop reaching out and cut off connections with other groups of people. We constantly refer to our dance scenes as "communities" but communities are not small isolated groups of people (or at least I don't think they should be) - they should be interconnected groups of people.

So at the very least, if you see someone you know at a dance, someone who isn't your close friend but with whom you've danced before, at least go over to say hi. That small act makes a big difference. You don't even have to ask them to dance, but you've opened the lines of communication, acknowledged the other person, made them feel comfortable coming over to ask you to dance because you are a friendly person who says hi.

At best, you approach new people, and you ask people to dance. As with hosting, it doesn't have to be all night long, but every now and then.

Do you have a responsibility to do it? No. I don't think it's that urgent (though I personally feel some urge to build a community and help improve the dancing in my scene). But if you don't want to be considered a clique, reach out beyond your group every now and then. Worse come to worst, you wasted 30 seconds of your time, but made someone else feel a little more comfortable.

Sometimes it is very difficult for organizers to mingle- because they have to have their attention on the details of the dance.

I do not see Gotham Organizers as falling into this category. Most of their work was completed before the dance began.

There is only one dj- so you do not need to keep setting new ppl up. The door is usually only one person. Door Volunteer can't mingle but they are the first face of your event so they should be very welcoming. Everyone else seems to be set-up and tear down. This leaves the whole dance for organizers to dance, and mingle as previously posted.

[SHORTYJOY]

One last thing- Advanced Dancers intimidate me through no fault of there own.

My friend Brenda once said to me...."It upsets me that people are afraid to ask me to dance. I didn't get better to dance less- I got better to dance more!"

I think that is true of many advanced leads and follows-but I am still intimidated.

[WestieTash]

So as Cal said it has to be a two way street. A friendly smile or just an acknowledgement from time to time from both sides can make all the difference and means more than you probably know. I think once ppl have been in the community for a while they may forget how hard and intimidating it is for newbies. I also think it's unrealistic to think we'll all be best buds. Some personalities just don't mesh but putting forth some effort no matter how small to help newbies feel welcomed is important. :o

Amen!

[KelKel]

Why not do an old fashion Barn Dance?

OK...stop laughing. Why not do a real fun dance that Mario did at a dance once. Not sure what the name is but you call out scotch, whisky, and rye alot and its realy fun! Essentially its similar to musical chairs.

also like mixers. I think someone else mentioned this, where everyone is asked to get in a big circle and then as the song plays switch from partner to partner. This was a BIG help for me just starting out. It gave me an opportunity to meet new ppl and the courage to ask them to dance later on. It is also non-committal. If you don't want to participate you don't have to so it doesn't force ppl to mingle that may not be interested in it.

I've also learned that I just have to get over my fears and ask ppl to dance. It just seems to be the nature of the scene and I can't sit around all night waiting to be asked. The reality is ppl aren't going to say no if you ask and if they do...Tongue Out Oh well on to the next person.

[CALI DOLL]

also like mixers. I think someone else mentioned this, where everyone is asked to get in a big circle and then as the song plays switch from partner to partner. This was a BIG help for me just starting out. It gave me an opportunity to meet new ppl and the courage to ask them to dance later on. It is also non-committal. If you don't want to participate you don't have to so it doesn't force ppl to mingle that may not be interested in it.

I've also learned that I just have to get over my fears and ask ppl to dance. It just seems to be the nature of the scene and I can't sit around all night waiting to be asked. The reality is ppl aren't going to say no if you ask and if they do...Tongue Out Oh well on to the next person.

Well, I've recieved a no or two (or three...LOL!) but I didn't take it personally. I just cried in the corner a little. :eek: :D

But as you said, Kel, on to the next person. I can't imagine saying "no" to someone who asks me to dance... But, I'm still new in the game. LOL!

[Scott S.]

Wow. I must be living in some alternate universe because the DC local area seems to be the polar opposite of what's being described as cliquish.

That doesn't mean that all the advanced dancers don't sit together, hang together and dance mostly with each other... they do.

But they also do something else. They notice if someone isn't dancing, and do something about it.

Anyone who has been to DeLounge in the DC area (just recently renamed to "Rehab") knows the massive intimidation factor there **that people make up in their own minds**. By 10:00, I look around and see that, out of 30 people remaining, 25 of them are competing at the Intermediate level or higher. It's as if you look around and think: "Pro, pro, semi-pro, advanced, US Open Competitor, semi-pro, All-Star, intermediate, semi-pro... and then there's me." :eek:

Lucky for me, my first time in this awe-inspiring place had me sitting for the first 90 minutes or so and then it was as if the locals decided that no one was allowed to be left out. Some nice gal named Hannah came over and asked me to dance... then someone else named Debbie did the same.

Over time, I learned that these people were Hannah Wenzel and Debra Lynn... and that they apparently know something about this dance. :D

It's not only at DeLounge ("Rehab")... the same happens at all the local dances. Regulars notice when someone isn't getting involved and take a moment to ask if they'd like to get involved. After all, it's only one song and that one song may be the ice breaker that someone else needed to get started.

No one ever really tries to be cliquish.... it happens accidentally. It's only by paying attention and taking a moment to make the effort to get someone involved that the *impression* of cliquishness is shattered.

So the next time you see someone being left out, offer them 3 minutes of your time. You never know...

[Cooley]

But as you said, Kel, on to the next person. I can't imagine saying "no" to someone who asks me to dance... But, I'm still new in the game. LOL!

Yes, Cali, you're new! The day will come, whether it's a 'valid' reason or not, it will come! LOL

[Cooley]

Wow. I must be living in some alternate universe because the DC local area seems to be the polar opposite of what's being described as cliquish.

That doesn't mean that all the advanced dancers don't sit together, hang together and dance mostly with each other... they do.

But they also do something else. They notice if someone isn't dancing, and do something about it.


It's funny you mention the DC area, cuz part of this thread IS based on the DC area. The fact you don't really notice means you must be part of the 'clique'! Kidding! Seriously Scott, you just found out what all of us in these so called 'cliques' have been saying-we may sit together and dance with each other-but we're far from being closed off and unapproachable to anyone willing to take a small chance!

[CALI DOLL]

Yes, Cali, you're new! The day will come, whether it's a 'valid' reason or not, it will come! LOL


LOL! Never! :eek:

*searches for halo* Tongue Out Tongue Out :tonguesmilie:

[SHORTYJOY]

One reality of cliques in any environment; "like ppl" are drawn to one another not opposites.

The creation of friendships with those who do not seem like us-whether knowingly or unknowingly is difficult and requires stepping outside the box.

Once these friendships have been developed it is easier to stay with the friends you know that to branch out. Thus the development of the "unapproachable", "intimidating " cliques.

I'm a very shy person that has been blessed to have made several friends in this scene because several people kindly reached out to me. Those friendships are deeply appreciated.

The problem is, I'm still a shy person and do not reach out to others the way several people have reached out to me. I think attitudes such as mine help continue the clique problem. (that and the whole weird rock star intimidation thing that I struggle with)

I do not see an easy resolution to this.

[Scott S.]

The problem is, I'm still a shy person and do not reach out to others the way several people have reached out to me. I think attitudes such as mine help continue the clique problem. (that and the whole weird rock star intimidation thing that I struggle with)

I do not see an easy resolution to this.

Other than the the current dance scene, I've been involved with eight other large social scenes (100+ people) over the last fifteen years, in four states, and am still involved with several of them. In my experience, people are people. Regardless of what scene you may be dealing with, anytime you put 100+ people together on a regular basis, the group dynamic remains the same. It's simply a fact of human nature.

Shortjoy, something about the quote I put here from you struck me. Don't sell yourself short just because you don't reach out to others the way more brazen people can, such as myself. Being shy isn't an attitude to be corrected and, in fact, your post seems to indicate that you have a wonderful attitude.

Being shy is simply a characteristic, such as hair or eye color, and there's nothing wrong with it. In fact, many people find it endearing.

There's nothing wrong with letting others be the welcoming committee and introducing yourself on your own terms, when you're comfortable. In fact, it's highly recommended!

Edit: I wish I had some advice about the "Rock Star" thing but there are about eight follows who I still can't bring myself to ask to dance. I know better, but I feel as if I have a lot more to learn before I would be anything more than a waste of their time. And this is from a guy who has a reputation for being bomb-proof and incorrigible in four states!