Anchoring at the end of the slot....

[jlindo]

Ok, people I have a big issue with folks (leaders/followers) not anchoring/tripple at the end of their slot/move/pattern. I recently attended a judges meeting at a NASDE event and the head judge expressed that they do not hold someone accountable if they do not do an anchor. They can do a body roll or a coster step or just stand there. The problem that I have with that is I expect see, and not to mention that i was trained, to always anchor at the end of the slot. I am having a really hard time with this "new" way that west coast swing is taking it's course....

[Burger]

That is scary. I have also heard something similar, but a bit more acceptable. I've heard that a weight change is also considered an anchor. I can see how a weight change could be considered an anchor, but definitely not "Standing There." Triple-Step...that's the best bet!

[coastswing]

I've heard of doing those things as variations, but to accept those as the 'norm'? Everyone likes to see variations from time to time, but if you vary too much where's the swing?

I was talking with a new dancer at a recent dance. He said he just started and has only taken a few classes, but when he's out at a dance he can hardly tell people are doing WCS.

How are we to pass this dance along to generations if it evolves to be nothing more than patterns that vaguely resemble swing? I'm all for evolution and being as creative as the music we dance to, but at some point it becomes something different...kind of like humans are no longer called apes.

[WestieTash]

So under this "new" set of swing rules, advanced male footwork will hit a new low! :(


Happy Swinging!

[Eric]

To me, lack of an anchor indicates a lack of an understanding about the dance. It also probably indicates a lack of proper connection, proper movement, or proper communication with the partner.

As Michael noted, it probably results from creativity - people trying to play around or play with the music on the anchor. But as he also noted, at a certain point we lose the character of the dance - body flight, the slot, swing rhythms. (Though I should point out that humans are still considered apes ;) )

I distinguish between the anchor step and the anchor - the former being the triple/body position that sets you up for a proper anchor, the latter being the stretch/extension and accompanying connection that results from reaching the end of the slot and then redirecting. (There's more to it, but that's my Cliff Notes version.) I don't believe one needs to triple to anchor (eg, single rhythm movements like rondes, whips with double outside turns that continue through the anchor step, etc) but there should always be an anchor - that slowing down and stretching before redirecting.

For me, I prefer to see some kind of triple (there are plenty of ways to be creative with a triple step). You can do a body roll or stand there, but before you begin moving forward (or for the leader, backwards) I expect to see the movement of the center away from the partner and the stretch in connection that results. As I said before, the anchor is part of the structure of the dance, and forsaking it indicates a lack of understanding about the dance.

We could get into a whole discussion about what Michael was saying, how WCS is becoming so creative it's losing its defining characteristics. My three biggest complaints would be the lack of an anchor, the lack of the slot and the lack of triple steps...

[coastswing]

When dealing with this ape, everyone must know to understand what I mean, not what I say....LOL. :p

[CrazyKate]

I distinguish between the anchor step and the anchor - the former being the triple/body position that sets you up for a proper anchor, the latter being the stretch/extension and accompanying connection that results from reaching the end of the slot and then redirecting. (There's more to it, but that's my Cliff Notes version.) I don't believe one needs to triple to anchor (eg, single rhythm movements like rondes, whips with double outside turns that continue through the anchor step, etc) but there should always be an anchor - that slowing down and stretching before redirecting.

For me, I prefer to see some kind of triple (there are plenty of ways to be creative with a triple step). You can do a body roll or stand there, but before you begin moving forward (or for the leader, backwards) I expect to see the movement of the center away from the partner and the stretch in connection that results. As I said before, the anchor is part of the structure of the dance, and forsaking it indicates a lack of understanding about the dance.
I was going to write a nice long post, but Eric beat me to what I was going to say! ;)

[-festa-]

It is only lip service to discuss anchoring when we're dancing to songs that are 80 beats a week. Physics does not require it. The glorious stretched center-to-center connection is function of physics at work and will only be learned by knowing how to dance to faster music. Then, once a body knows this movement, it can translate it to slower songs. Texas Whip aside, it is impossible to learn at today's tempos and todays diverse sounds

[dancin_weezie]

It is only lip service to discuss anchoring when we're dancing to songs that are 80 beats a week. Physics does not require it. The glorious stretched center-to-center connection is function of physics at work and will only be learned by knowing how to dance to faster music. Then, once a body knows this movement, it can translate it to slower songs. Texas Whip aside, it is impossible to learn at today's tempos and todays diverse sounds

Absolutely!

[westcoastjunkie]

Ok, people I have a big issue with folks (leaders/followers) not anchoring/tripple at the end of their slot/move/pattern. I recently attended a judges meeting at a NASDE event and the head judge expressed that they do not hold someone accountable if they do not do an anchor. They can do a body roll or a coster step or just stand there.

Was this for a Newcomer or Novice division?

The problem that I have with that is I expect see, and not to mention that i was trained, to always anchor at the end of the slot. I am having a really hard time with this "new" way that west coast swing is taking it's course....

I've noticed this trend too. A friend of mine a few years ago went to an event in the Midwest and was told to stop doing the anchor. I was stunned to hear this. Like Eric said, "To me, lack of an anchor indicates a lack of an understanding about the dance." I know many of the newer dancers in my area are people who came from other dance backgrounds and try to pick it up on their own and they usually don't recognize it, let alone understand its purpose.

So as a non-professional, non-competitive dancer I am going to throw the proverbial Spaghetti on the Wall and see what sticks. I look forward to any feedback, especially from the pros.

First of all, it's swing baby! To me, that means it is a rhythm dance based on (but not limited to) 6 & 8 count sequences (avoiding the word "pattern" here) with clear beginnings and endings, while still staying in motion. The anchor, among other things, indicates an ending and a beginning, and maintains movement for the dancers through the transition and helps provide momentum for the next sequence. Swing also means (to me) that the energy or dynamic of the dance is outward (or "leveraged" or "extended"). The anchor re-establishes this, and as a follower, it allows me to move forward while maintaining a leveraged (outward) relation to my leader.

The anchor is key to both of those characteristics which help define swing dancing. IMO, if you take away the anchor you are taking away one of the fundamental elements that distinguishes swing dancing from other rhythm dances. Without the anchor, you maybe dancing, you maybe even dancing well, but I question whether you are truly swing dancing.

I don't teach and I haven't taken a group class in a long while so I can't comment on why this is happening, only that I have noticed it too. But I am going to suggest that perhaps a few of the pros might offer a workshop at the local and National Event level devoted to The Anchor - What it is and Why we do it.

~JM2C~

[Eric]

It is only lip service to discuss anchoring when we're dancing to songs that are 80 beats a week. Physics does not require it. The glorious stretched center-to-center connection is function of physics at work and will only be learned by knowing how to dance to faster music. Then, once a body knows this movement, it can translate it to slower songs. Texas Whip aside, it is impossible to learn at today's tempos and todays diverse sounds

As much as I love and appreciate Festa's bold style (I really do!), I respectfully disagree. (Well, I agree that if you're dancing to 80 beats a *week* that there's no physical need for an anchor, but hyperbole aside...) ;)

Let me digress for a second: Natural walking pace varies for different people, but 100-120 beats per minute is 100-120 steps per minute, about 2-3 mph, or a lightly active pace. Add to the fact that a triple step is three steps in two beats, and you have a person that is stepping at a rate of 150-180 steps per minute, which is definitely more active, and closer to 4.5 mph. I'd like to see anyone walk at 4.5 mph and tell me there's no physical need to slow down in order to change direction. :)

All that aside, there's momentum there - whether it be at 2 mph or 5 mph - and a linear change in direction, which requires one to slow down their center before redirecting it, and that's enough to anchor. It may not be as strong an anchor as some prefer, or enough leverage for some, but that doesn't mean that physics isn't at play and that there should be no anchor.

And style of music isn't an issue when what dictates the anchor is lateral movement and the speed of redirection, not whether it's done to blues, soul, pop, or contemporary R&B. (When we're talking about music that calls for swing movement, that may be another story!) ;)

As for learning to dance faster first, could you elaborate on that thought? I understand that faster speeds encourage counterbalance (and I know your preference for faster music :) ). I just don't see why faster speeds are *necessary* to teach one how to move from your center, or to isolate your center, or how to respond to redirection. (In my experience and observation, people instead utilize and respond with their arms, rather than the proper slowing down and redirection - unless they round it out and make the dance circular - or have proper instruction, which is a whole other bag of beans....)

Moreover, if speed is important, than why is Texas Whip the exception? I'm not all that familiar with Whip, so I'm curious what characteristics it has that facilitates a better anchor. And what are those characteristics that are not found in slower West Coast Swing?

[AllSwingDj]

The times have changed! To see you all on the same page is wonderful!

Since many well respected WCS teachers have posted on this, I must ask the question: when does the end of the slot/move/pattern occur?

Is it really the final two beat unit in a pattern?

Since "swing is danced in 6 & 8 count patterns";
Is the end of the pattern achieved at 4 in a 6? or 6 in a 8?
Even the WSDC refuses to answer this question.
Any idea why?
It's a can-o-worms. No one wants to admit it or accept it, too many want it to remain undefined.

The new anchor definition of "stretch/extension" happens when?
In the last two beat unit? uh...yeah.
So, does the end of the "pattern" NOT happen at the end of the two beat unit in the "pattern" prior to the unit containing the stretch/extension? well.....uh, yeah. That's when it happens.
The "end of the rope" is achieved via 4 in a 6; or 6 in an 8. What is left is to anchor via...could it be something that has a "stretch/extension"???
Could we all remember that when teaching?

Might be a way to stay on the same page.

greg


Ok, people I have a big issue with folks (leaders/followers) not anchoring/tripple at the end of their slot/move/pattern. I recently attended a judges meeting at a NASDE event and the head judge expressed that they do not hold someone accountable if they do not do an anchor. They can do a body roll or a coster step or just stand there. The problem that I have with that is I expect see, and not to mention that i was trained, to always anchor at the end of the slot. I am having a really hard time with this "new" way that west coast swing is taking it's course....

[WestieTash]

***Disclaimer*** I am NOT attempting to speak for John Festa :)

I believe the Texas Whip Festa was speaking about is Slow Whip. Eric, were you at ACC for the Friday night events? If you were, you saw it. It's danced to the slowest of blues - 50 - 80bmp. Although it's danced to such slow music, there's an anchor/double resistance/hitch with each pattern that allows dancers to settle into the correct hip. This movement is part of what makes the dance slow whip.

So, I believe Festa was trying to say that Slow Whip is the only time you get/need an anchor with really slow music.

[Swingdaddy]

True Anchors, Festa is correct. Texas Whip anchors, also known as Double Resistance (Rock-Step to the Dallas old timers) can only be done to slower tempos. One of the big reasons double resistance has become more commonplace is the slow-down in tempo. Once you pass roughly 126bpm (higher for some, lower for some) real anchors start showing up again.

Lindo, I agree completely.

As to when Anchors begin...not 4...it's AFTER 4 on a 6 count, or 6 on an 8 count pattern. The end of a traveling triple (which ALWAYS happens on 3&4) doesn't anchor, although it can achieve extension. Closely look at Beginning footwork...does your foot on 5 step in place or slightly back? Umm, there's your answer as to when the extension is supposed to begin.

Anchor definition - STATIONARY (duh, it's called an anchor) extension achieved during the last 2 beats of (theoretically) each pattern.

Floating anchors...someone was smoking something when they came up with that name...when was the last time an anchor floated? Now TRAVELING anchors might hold some credibility with me...the only problem is that if the triple travels it really isn't anchoring now is it? Using it as a styling is one thing, but using it liberally throughout the dance...thanks for playing, but no.

Lack of anchor doesn't necessarily illustrate lack of knowledge about the dance, just lack of execution.

[-festa-]

and if i may chime in one more time .....

Eric: what the heck are you talking about? what does the speed of walking have to do with the price of eggs? you are too smart for your own good.

i think the single most important factor in the extinction of the true leveraged anchor is public perception. It is no longer held in high esteem. It is now overlooked as WCS became about moves instead of movement. One does not see a stretched anchor on the competition floor or on the social floor. It seems more important for a follower to air hump while being held 4" from the floor by their neck.

[Eric]

for jl: anchors good. trying to make them happen. still believe can happen at slower speeds. :)

First off, let me say this is a fantastic discussion! And I think it's awesome that such incredible dancers/teachers are partaking - a great opportunity for us all to learn!

Mario, thanks for responding, and for providing some clear insights. Out of curiosity, why do you think true anchors stop happening below 126 bpm? What's the difference between 130 bpm and 120 bpm that causes such a loss? I would love to hear more :)

Festa, I mention the speed of walking because you raised the notion of speed being important and how "physics doesn't require" an anchor at slower speeds. That aside, I agree with you whole-heartedly about the lack of emphasis on the anchor, and the misplaced priority put on moves instead of movement. Both are things I have been working hard to put back into the dance so that people are swing dancing again, rather than doing hip-hop holding hands. And I'm glad you're teaching again to help restore some order! ;)

[AllSwingDj]

Bravo maestro.
In the last two beat unit.

I sail the sea often enough to understand anchoring.
An anchor works by resisting the movement force of the vessel which is attached to it.


In nautical terms an interesting element of anchor jargon is the term aweigh, which describes the anchor when it is hanging on the rope, not resting on the bottom; this is linked to the term to weigh anchor, meaning to lift the anchor from the sea bed, allowing the ship or boat to move.

Maybe the floating anchor should be called an aweigh anchor? :D

In nautical context a "traveling " (aka dragging) anchor is to be avoided at all costs as it allows the ship or boat to move. When the anchor is firmly set look around for reference points in relation to the boat. You can sight over your compass to get the bearing of two different fixed points (house, rock, tower, etc. ) Over the next hour or so, make sure those reference points are in the same place. If not you’re probably dragging anchor.

lack of an anchor on a ship or boat shows lack of respect for the forces of the sea that will be showcased to the captain at sometime in the future.

Just some other definitions to work with.







As to when Anchors begin...not 4...it's AFTER 4 on a 6 count, or 6 on an 8 count pattern. The end of a traveling triple (which ALWAYS happens on 3&4) doesn't anchor, although it can achieve extension. Closely look at Beginning footwork...does your foot on 5 step in place or slightly back? Umm, there's your answer as to when the extension is supposed to begin.

Anchor definition - STATIONARY (duh, it's called an anchor) extension achieved during the last 2 beats of (theoretically) each pattern.

Floating anchors...someone was smoking something when they came up with that name...when was the last time an anchor floated? Now TRAVELING anchors might hold some credibility with me...the only problem is that if the triple travels it really isn't anchoring now is it? Using it as a styling is one thing, but using it liberally throughout the dance...thanks for playing, but no.

Lack of anchor doesn't necessarily illustrate lack of knowledge about the dance, just lack of execution.

[westcoastjunkie]

and if i may chime in one more time .....

It is now overlooked as WCS became about moves instead of movement... It seems more important for a follower to air hump while being held 4" from the floor by their neck.

ROFL!

[David_D]

Is there anchoring in a pattern with a double-spin at the end (e.g., whip w/outside double)? If so, where/when does it occur?

If there is no anchor, does that mean that patterns with spins at the end shouldn't be considered WCS?

Dave

[SoundInMotionDJ]

There can be an anchor following a double spin. The anchor would come after the spin, and before the next "1".

The real question is: are freespin's "swing content?" :rolleyes:

--Stan Graves

[MikeRosa]

Anchor definition - STATIONARY (duh, it's called an anchor) extension achieved during the last 2 beats of (theoretically) each pattern..

Ok, I have been following discussion and I find the debate very interesting!

I am what is termed a newbie, Just about 6 mths to be exact and I do my Swing in London.

The one big thing that made me want to learn to dance WCS was the character of the dance, the look, stretch away just after the anchor before moving together again. Its the thing I still look for when watching other couples dance.

OK I'll get to my point :eek:

Ladies & Gentlemen, quite frankly it's down to the way its being taught out there on the floor! connection being regained by 5& or 7&! and I am talking about the basic triple here.

In my very short time, I have been lucky enough to do a number classes of top US professionals and overall I have been mightly impressed with their teaching ability. However on the question of the Anchor and how its done there seems to be little consistancy...! I have only seen one person teach the Anchor as being stationary( You know who you are)!

So I am gonna throw this one back up and say that in my opinion what youre seeing on the floor is what we are being taught in the classroom!!

You wanna see Swing, Teach Swing!

Thank you.
Mike

[notfromchicago]

There can be an anchor following a double spin. The anchor would come after the spin, and before the next "1".

The real question is: are freespin's "swing content?" :rolleyes:

--Stan Graves

well i don't see any reason for it not to be "swing content" if you have that 'stretch' at the end of the sequence and you have the leverage away i don't see any reason why its not swing content.

[Dancelf]

There can be an anchor following a double spin. The anchor would come after the spin, and before the next "1".

I don't think that's going to work, in an audience that wants to insist that an extension movement which travels on last two beats is not an anchor. (Unless, of course, you are referring to circumstances in which there is a two beat duration between the end of the spin and the followers next forward movement.)

[SoundInMotionDJ]

I don't think that's going to work, in an audience that wants to insist that an extension movement which travels on last two beats is not an anchor. (Unless, of course, you are referring to circumstances in which there is a two beat duration between the end of the spin and the followers next forward movement.)

Do you know of such an audience? I know of a great many audiences who insist on a great many things...the vast majority of which they never get.

I suppose that the "traveling" you refer to would also apply to a "spin" that was "in place"?

There is an "anchor unit" an "anchor step" and an "anchor connection." Those are three distinct things. I was referring to the "anchor connection." What are you referring to? What is your insistent audience referring to?

Is the anchor for the audience, or for the two dancers? Can a leader anchor without a weight change? What if the follower could not notice a difference in the connection between an anchor that had weight changes and an anchor that did not?

--Stan Graves

[Dancelf]

Do you know of such an audience?

Um... how about the contributors to this thread, who have made it clear that (in their opinion) "anchor connection" is not sufficient for "anchor"? By my reading, that group includes Lindo and Mario, but not Eric. Maybe Festa as well?

[David_D]

I really am curious about how patterns with spins at the end fit into the argument that the anchor covers the last two beats. I've probably heard Mario's explanation before, but I can't remember how it went.

Dave

[Dancelf]

I really am curious about how patterns with spins at the end fit into the argument that the anchor covers the last two beats. I've probably heard Mario's explanation before, but I can't remember how it went.

If the conditions of contest require "80% swing content", and a couple dances only 8 count swing patterns, and ends every one of them with a double spin, are they supposed to be charged with a violation?

I don't know if there is a right answer, but the question itself might be a useful tool for exposing hidden assumptions.

[memiki]

Ok, people I have a big issue with folks (leaders/followers) not anchoring/tripple at the end of their slot/move/pattern. I recently attended a judges meeting at a NASDE event and the head judge expressed that they do not hold someone accountable if they do not do an anchor. They can do a body roll or a coster step or just stand there. The problem that I have with that is I expect see, and not to mention that i was trained, to always anchor at the end of the slot. I am having a really hard time with this "new" way that west coast swing is taking it's course....

This is my first post here. I appreciate the opportunity to vent on the subject as it relates to a follower who is a social dancer and does not compete, but who takes competition dancing very seriously.......

Mystery solved. Thank you, John, for helping me to "see the light" :confused: I have been perplexed as I watched followers move up from Intermediate to Advanced to All Stars at events. Did anyone see a triple or an anchor at the end of the slot or move or anywhere, I have often said to those at my table as the dancers walked off the floor after placing?

Is the future of the WCS we all love in the hands of the judges? At the very least, IMHO they should look for enough pure triples and anchors to identify the dance..... and also allow some variations of the triples/anchors.

"Just stand there"!!!???? My feet are never at a loss for words and that would mean they would have to stop talkin'. If "just standing there" means a pause, or elongating the beat for two counts I think that's O.K., too, as a styling tool -- as a follower, dancing to slow Blues, I sometimes find myself doing this at the end of a slot before anchoring back to &1 and also at other times in the slot.

Having said all that, methinks that in competitive dancing the judges should include triples and anchors in their purest form as requisites -- they are part of the foundation of what makes WCS........and removing parts of a foundation eventually destroys the original. I say keep the foundation and add to it, not take away.

Miki

[Scott S.]

I want to be careful how I phrase this because there can be a large difference between what the instructor says and what the student hears. The *impression* I've been getting (which may not be what instructors were trying to communicate) is that the solid leveraged connection from body center to body center on 1 is the key when anchoring.

**Edit: The impression is that the connection comes from the anchor, prior to the actual count of 1 itself. The idea being that the anchor sets the starting point, with connection, for the coming 1.**

I also got the impression that moves which eliminate the end triple are not a bad thing as long as care is taken to establish a good solid starting point for the next pattern, which could potentially be accomplished by using quick, slight compression on & to set up the leverage on 1.

True, semi-true or do I need to clean out my ears and pay attention more closely?

Scott

[notfromchicago]

in my expriencei haven't heard an instructor say that there should be compression on the &1 only that you should have the leverage away from your partner before the one generaly started on the 2nd to last count of a move. in my opinion you should always have leverage away from your partner(the one of the defining characteristics of WCS, IMO). as long as you have the rubberband effect/leverage you are dancing WCS. though in order to be on the correct foot to start a move you need to do a triple at the end of your move and as you do so you get that leverage.

[SHORTYJOY]

in my expriencei haven't heard an instructor say that there should be compression on the &1 only that you should have the leverage away from your partner before the one generaly started on the 2nd to last count of a move. in my opinion you should always have leverage away from your partner(the one of the defining characteristics of WCS, IMO). as long as you have the rubberband effect/leverage you are dancing WCS. though in order to be on the correct foot to start a move you need to do a triple at the end of your move and as you do so you get that leverage.

Lindy Swing Outs are also very leveraged and there is not an "Anchor". We do triple at the end of an 8 count pattern and create the leverage by holding back on one. Carry-on

[Alina]

The problem I see with judges enforcing some sort of "rules" re doing an anchor is that a competitor VERY rarely gets personal feedback on why they didn't make the callback or why they didn't place from those who judged them at a comp. I just don't see that as being part of the WCS culture (as opposed to the ballroom culture where I as a competitor can go up to a judge after the competition and get a list of things that either offended them about my partner and I or things they liked about our dancing). Competition dancing is really not taken seriously to the point where the judges can act as enforcers of technique because the competitor wouldn't know what aspect of his/her technique are being held against them and thus would be unable to fix that aspect. Granted most of the judges are also teachers and can emphasize certain aspects of technique in their lessons and workshops, but again when the competitor doesn't really get personal feedback re their dancing on a regualr basis from those who have just judged him or her, it's not a useful tool.

For example: I didn't do as well at MadJam as I thought I would, against the same dancers whom I've beaten before. Was I dancing worse than before - not even close; I had very good dances. But there was really no way for me to find out why I didn't make the final because a) I didn't even know who was judging me (I actually had one judge approach me during social dancing and tell me how much she loved my dancing in the prelim and that she spent the entire last dance watching me because my dancing reminded her of her own dancing; however, she also told me she judged guys in that prelim- figures!) and b) even if I did know who judged me, chances are so many hours after, they probably wouldn't remember my dancing from all the other women in my division. Hence my point - there is really no way for the dancer to fix anything a judge sees them do and penalizes them for it unless there is more interaction between competitors and judges that's related to competition dancing.

Also, I see many of the judges not dancing anchors themselves with any particular regularity so how can they enforce it in others?

Personally, I love the feeling of an anchor and try to dance it regularly:)

[KelKel]

Alina, I was anxious for feedback after my comp. at Madjams as well and was told by many ppl that most judges are open to you asking and many remember more than you may realize. Unfortunately I could only catch one of the judges but the advice was good and when I watched vids of myself I could see exactly what the judge was talking about.

I am still pretty new to WCS so my friends and I are always chasing the definition of what is "right" in WCS. I, like you, have noticed many Pros who do not fully anchor (triple step) but I do believe they anchor (pull their centers back) for the most part. Again I'm new so I may not be explaining myself well.

I think my confusion especially in competition is that there are no set rules and that each judge is looking for something different. I've realized that at times comps are just the luck of the draw depending on song, partner, and judges. So I simply do my best cause that's all I can do.

I too enjoy the feel of anchoring. I get frustrated when leads do not allow me to anchor. It may be that I'm dancing with newer dancers but often times I get pulled forward before I can anchor. If this is happening consistently in a dance, especially during a comp. what should I do?

[Cooley]

...I too enjoy the feel of anchoring. I get frustrated when leads do not allow me to anchor. It may be that I'm dancing with newer dancers but often times I get pulled forward before I can anchor. If this is happening consistently in a dance, especially during a comp. what should I do?

Kel, I think if you're getting lots of leaders who don't allow you to anchor, it's probably got more to do with them not knowing what they're doing, then them just not doing it. You should try dancing with more advanced dancers-not necessarily forgetting the newbie leaders-but just so you can get a true feel of what's 'right'..or atleast closer to being 'right'! As for comps, in my limited/long time ago experience, I have found that trying to fight it usually leads no where and has you looking like your fighting your leader. Just try to adapt for the sake of those few minutes!

[Khrystyna]

While out in Chicago during the Jack and Jill did not anchor at all. We watched him on the social floor and could not for the life of me figure out where he learned from.

[Swingdaddy]

My my my, how times have changed...

Anchoring during double spins:
Many years ago when double spins at the end of patterns didn't travel (really, they didn't) quite often the Follower excuted a whip with double on one foot during the spin. These days, double spins at the end of a pattern tend to travel away from the Leader on 7&8 (5&6 for tucks with doubles) so the rules for these spins have changed.

If the double spin doesn't travel, then anchoring is obviously occurring (hint...not moving) while it can't by the standard definition occur if the spin travels. Since most of the population has been taught to travel 7&8, there really isn't much anchoring until the end of the spin (either 8 or 1 if doing delayed rhythms) has occurred.

HOWEVER...the Leader is still doing his triple (at least he should be), so I can see a very REAL argument that anchoring is still present, can't you? If the leader is traveling toward the Follower there's no real way anyone could say anchoring is present.

As for competitions...and boy is this gonna make waves...
Most of the people I read on forums (yes I read most of them) seem to think that all competitions are equal. If you dance well you should place highly, if you dance poorly you shouldn't. The TRUTH is that placements very tremendously based on the judging panel. While there are rules for each competition, these rules still allow for a very high degree of subjectivity. As a result, the exact same dance contest would receive very different scores if the judging panel were changed. The best thing about WCS is its lack of standardization...it's the reason so many can keep consistently voicing their opinions about the dance, and the reason it only takes a J&J and business cards to become a dance "pro" these days.

The worst thing about WCS? Its lack of standardization. It allows for very differing points of view to not only be present, but also flourish. The result is our dance becomes more and more polluted with extraneous rubbish that has little to do with our dance aside from making it more unapproachable to the masses. There's a reason the Lindy population keeps growing while WCS doesn't. Many argued that the music didn't connect with the young generation and gradually changed it to include predominantly current music, yet the Lindy crowd (substantially younger) still dances to music from as far back as the 20's.

My advice...anchors define the dance. Anchors set this dance apart from the others. One poster said Lindy doesn't anchor...that's one way to tell WCS from Lindy. Slot is another rule...try it. Don't tell me that a pattern that rotates 450 degrees is slotted, because it isn't. Walking forward at the beginning for the Follower, another great rule that sets WCS apart from Jitterbug and its rock step. As to how often you should do these? That's up to the event directors/chief judges/judges. If you don't feel they should have this power, you can always put on your own event.

How many words need to be spoken in english within a given sentence? If I spoke 75% of the sentence in Spanish, would it still be an English sentence? If I don't see some semblance of anchors in 3 out of 4 patterns, then I'm not seeing 75% WCS.

[David_D]

Thanks, Mario!

I was under the impression that two things were necessary for an anchor -- the center doesn't move, and there is extension between the two dancers. I don't usually think of there being any extension during a double-spin (wouldn't this off-balance the spinner?) Is the extension optional, then? Or do you only need it during the end of the anchor?

Dave
(confused)

[circlecityswing]

Mario, great points!


As for competitions...and boy is this gonna make waves...
Most of the people I read on forums (yes I read most of them) seem to think that all competitions are equal. If you dance well you should place highly, if you dance poorly you shouldn't. The TRUTH is that placements very tremendously based on the judging panel. While there are rules for each competition, these rules still allow for a very high degree of subjectivity. As a result, the exact same dance contest would receive very different scores if the judging panel were changed.

As most of us know, at this point, it is the responsibility of the event directors to select the judging panels, and to explain to those judges how they want the competitions judged. Some pros are more focused on presentation, some on technique, and some pros may, or may not, have training in judging. These are a few of the things that go into selecting a panel of judges. Even if the scoring system were changed to require figure skating style 'technique' and 'style' scores, it is what it is. Even with changes in a scoring system, by the nature of the competition, the scoring will be, and has to be, subjective. At the one midwest event, the requirement is 90% swing for Jack and Jill competitions, and anchors, forward steps, etc. are key parts of the rules used to define swing content. This is what is asked of the judges, in all competitions...to evaluate the dance of each couple as compared to the 'standard' of the fundamentals of WCS.



The worst thing about WCS? Its lack of standardization. It allows for very differing points of view to not only be present, but also flourish. The result is our dance becomes more and more polluted with extraneous rubbish that has little to do with our dance aside from making it more unapproachable to the masses. There's a reason the Lindy population keeps growing while WCS doesn't. Many argued that the music didn't connect with the young generation and gradually changed it to include predominantly current music, yet the Lindy crowd (substantially younger) still dances to music from as far back as the 20's.

This lack of standardization and creep in the definition of the dance will continue unless and until the directors of the competitions enforce better standards on what is and what is not 'swing content'. Most dancers understand that most events only require 80% swing content for Classic competitions, and only 60% for Showcase competitions. Because these competitions are exciting to watch, even though some of these routines don't appear to have the swing content that is required, dancers aspire to dance like the routines that they see on the floor that get such great reviews. Obviously, setting high swing content requirements for Showcase defeats the purpose of the competition. Perhaps more importantly, it is nearly impossible for a judge to compute swing content on the fly for a heated competition. This is an excellent place to mention that some of what is seen on the floor in the lower levels of competition (and on the social floor) is dancers trying to imitate what they see in the higher levels of competition (with the 'advanced leaders footwork' and all).



My advice...anchors define the dance. Anchors set this dance apart from the others. One poster said Lindy doesn't anchor...that's one way to tell WCS from Lindy. Slot is another rule...try it. Don't tell me that a pattern that rotates 450 degrees is slotted, because it isn't. Walking forward at the beginning for the Follower, another great rule that sets WCS apart from Jitterbug and its rock step. As to how often you should do these? That's up to the event directors/chief judges/judges. If you don't feel they should have this power, you can always put on your own event.

I agree!!! I am an event director, and would love to see much more standardization in how the dance is defined for competition purposes. It seems that the more is allowed in competition, the more the dance form creeps to follow. This won't happen until the community demands it from the directors. Sorry, but it's true! Standardization is unlikely unless the directors agree to it, OR, WSDC becomes more of a 'sanctioning body' and requires it to have points count (something that seems unlikely at this point, and perhaps would be bad).

Alina earlier commented that it would be great to have the opportunity to talk to the judges about their dance, and their scores. Perhaps this is something that should be split to a new thread, but maybe this could be done by making the assignments of the judges in a J&J prelim (leaders and followers) available, and asking the judges to comment to dancers that ask. Many will already, but it seems that this is not an 'acceptable' practice in the eyes of many competitions.



How many words need to be spoken in english within a given sentence? If I spoke 75% of the sentence in Spanish, would it still be an English sentence? If I don't see some semblance of anchors in 3 out of 4 patterns, then I'm not seeing 75% WCS.

THANK YOU! If it doesn't look like swing, and it doesn't swing like swing, maybe, just maybe, IT ISN'T SWING?! I must agree that getting back to the foundations of WCS would be to the benefit of all dancers, including the 'more progressive' ones that want to push the boundaries of what is, and isn't, swing.

[dancin_weezie]

Alina earlier commented that it would be great to have the opportunity to talk to the judges about their dance, and their scores. Perhaps this is something that should be split to a new thread, but maybe this could be done by making the assignments of the judges in a J&J prelim (leaders and followers) available, and asking the judges to comment to dancers that ask. Many will already, but it seems that this is not an 'acceptable' practice in the eyes of many competitions.


This used to be a common practice at events. There would be a judges review session after results were posted that everyone could attend. Unfortunately it had to stop because to many judges were being accosted by people who didn't agree with what was being said. Most judges are really good about giving feedback if you approach them one on one. All I'm going to say is - please don't abuse it!!!!

[bethany]

Ooooh, like on American Idol where they snap at Simon and tell him they CAN sing and they WILL be a great singer someday, and Simon doesn't know anything? hehehe, oh that's bad! I didn't realize that was happening, because I came into the scene right at the end of the review sessions. Poor judges!

[dancin_weezie]

Ooooh, like on American Idol where they snap at Simon and tell him they CAN sing and they WILL be a great singer someday, and Simon doesn't know anything? hehehe, oh that's bad! I didn't realize that was happening, because I came into the scene right at the end of the review sessions. Poor judges!

Exactly! Imagine a judge (on a Sunday afternoon no less) sitting at a table with 10-15 dancers at a time waiting to ask why they didn't do better than they did. It was usually chaos. I don't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday let alone how 150 people danced!! :eek:

[Alina]

It would be great to have sessions like that but I can understand how they could go wrong. In ballroom competition, it's a pretty accepted custom to ask judges for feedback after the competition is over. The problem with it being an accepted practice in WCS, is that WCS is WAY more of a social dance discipline than ballroom and therefore way more prone to hurt feelings to hear negative comments from judges who also happen to be social friends of yours. Ballroom judges are usually big name coaches and pros who do not socialize with competitors - they judge and they teach, that's it. We don't really social dance with them, drink with them, chat with them as friends. It makes it much easier to approach them for constructive criticism than approaching someone who's not just a professional judge but also an acquiantance or even a friend.

I also feel like at events pros are so busy and so in demand that they don't have much time to spend rehashing their judging reasoning to hundreds of competitors. I have trouble even asking a big name pro to dance because I feel like they probably a) just want to rest and talk to their friends or b) just have much better things to do than dance with someone so below their level. I guess I feel like I would just be bothering them when they are bothered a lot already at events and I don't want to be the one to contribute to it:)...

[vegas4x4]

There's a reason the Lindy population keeps growing while WCS doesn't. Many argued that the music didn't connect with the young generation and gradually changed it to include predominantly current music, yet the Lindy crowd (substantially younger) still dances to music from as far back as the 20's.


I'm curious to why you feel that the Lindy crowd is growing and the WCS crowd isn't? I have found that to be the case slightly, but I don't see the reason to have anything to do with the music.

Many of the Lindy dancers I know just love retro stuff. They love dressing up and the retro subculture that goes with Lindy dancing. On the flip side, I'm sure there are many people who would be competely turned off at that idea. Many of my friends (who are younger) I guarantee would never think twice about dancing Lindy, but they like watching WCS. They like the smooth WCS and the fact that it can be danced to contemporary music. If you compare WCS to Lindy as a whole, I think that WCS is definitely more neutral and appealing to a much wider audience. In my opinion, WCS is FAR more approachable to the masses than Lindy.

That said, Lindy dancing does appear to be growing in my area more than WCS, but I think the main part of that is because we don't have a good WCS instruction base in my area. Also, Lindy has east coast swing as a starter dance. How many people who dance Lindy got started dancing east coast swing? I know some people start with ECS and move to WCS (I did), but the natural progression seems to move from ECS to Lindy. WCS really doesn't have an easy starter dance that naturally moves people towards WCS.

Also, dancing WCS seems to be much more expensive than Lindy. Granted, you can make it as expensive as you want, but I know very few Lindy dancers who have ever taken a private lesson nor do they ever plan to take a private lesson. On the WCS side it seems far more common to take private lessons. Also, WCS dancers seem to go to a lot more dance events than Lindy dancers and the quality of WCS dance events seems far higher than most Lindy events. Most of the Lindy dancers I know spend $40 to go to an exchange and stay at a host's house for the weekend. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, but it's just a whole different culture. I think the higher cost of dancing WCS definitely pushes away some younger dancers.

Finally, you've got the chicken and the egg problem. At the monthly dance in my area, out of say 70 people, there are maybe 5 of us under 30 and maybe 15 of us under 40. It's hard to get younger people started in a dance that is filled with predominately older people.

That's my .02 on WCS vs Lindy attracting younger dancers. I'm curious to hear what you think though.

PS. Great job at Seattle. Really enjoyed the Emcee'ing.

[whipdancer]

I'm curious to why you feel that the Lindy crowd is growing and the WCS crowd isn't? I have found that to be the case slightly, but I don't see the reason to have anything to do with the music...<snip>...you've got the chicken and the egg problem. At the monthly dance in my area, out of say 70 people, there are maybe 5 of us under 30 and maybe 15 of us under 40. It's hard to get younger people started in a dance that is filled with predominately older people.

I don't think Mario was saying music had anything to do with it. He was relaying (something I've heard too many times to count) that the reason younger people had stayed away from WCS was the music.

As for Lindy - I went to Swingin' New England last year. It was my first time at an event that wasn't purely WCS. I was amazed at the Lindy crowd and their dancing.

Since then, I've noticed that many of the younger crowd that I know in WCS started in Lindy. They continue to patronize both. As their tastes get more refined they seem to gravitate toward WCS events instead of Lindy events, though.

When I started this dance I was the youngest person in the room by probably 10 years. There was only one other person in the room close to my age (2 years older), and he had already been dancing for 2 or 3 years by this time. That issue has been around forever.

I will say that some of my travels these last couple of years have left me bitterly disappointed in some respects, but still hopeful in others. I loved meeting the Shag community at Grand Nationals. They are what we were. A real community. I enjoyed seeing the Lindy community and their love of and respect for their dance. I was appalled by the behavior of many "Pros" at Grand Nationals. But I loved seeing something with identifiable swing in it win.

I'm hoping that the pendulum is nearing the end of it's arc, and will begin moving back toward swing again. It would appear that way, what with all the talk about how WCS has changed for the worse, the (lack of) anchor issue, and a few examples of identifiable swing being rewarded at some of the big events. I do hope that is the case.

As for me, I refuse to give up what I've always done. Sorta like Mario says in his sig, I am not a westie, I am not a lindy, I am a Whip dancer.

[senatordl]

Botton line is standing still while doing a body roll in place of tripling or a true anchor step is not dancing and certainly not dancing WC. All the rest is techno babble. JL is dead on. Give credit to a simple explanation as to how it should be and use variations within the dance rather then trying to make up a different dance and still call it WCS.:shades:

[swingdj]

Found this article on The Greater Phoenix Swing Dance Club's web page...it was in thier recent newsletter (June)...the article was written by Skippy Blair.

ANCHORS in West Coast Swing (Judging)

Skippy Blair©
5-20-05 - Update: 2-07, 4-08

Because of recent Intensives, discussions with judges, contestants, and even potential judges, we have netted new insights into the art of “anchoring.” During a Session in Seattle, someone was concerned about an out-of-state competition where they had recently competed. (Not in Seattle) This particular person had judged one couple very LOW, because of a lack of anchoring. The judge’s statement was: “I never saw an anchor in the whole routine.” Not having observed that competition, I could not state an opinion. Then, someone else asked: “What did you see that convinced you they were not anchoring?” The reply was “I didn’t see any triples on the end of their patterns.”


Several participants discussed that “Triples” were not crucial to create an anchor. A few were definite that triples should be present in the dance, but were certainly not REQUIRED as part of EVERY anchor. They knew their definitions and from later reports, I know that it was a very rewarding discussion. The discussion showed that there were a few people who were unaware that an anchor could be danced without a Triple. It also showed that

MANY were already very much aware, that it was not the Triple itself that defined an anchor.


Educational Note: An anchor is neither a Foot Position nor a Dance Rhythm. An ANCHOR is an ACTION. Many dancers do Triples in 3rd foot position, but still do not achieve the “connection” that qualifies the move as an anchor. An ANCHOR is an “away” connection from one partner’s center (CPB) to the other partner’s center. It can easily be achieved by both partners placing their Center Point of Balance (CPB) BEHIND the heel of their forward foot. This strengthens the partner connection at the point where the anchor takes place. This also alerts each partner that they have completed what they intended and are now ready to move on. TEACHING someone to do an “ANCHOR Triple, in 3rd foot position” is a good basic teaching technique in the beginning stages. The very next stage is to make them aware that their center (CPB) should be behind the heel of the forward foot.

An Anchor Connection can be done using various rhythms: A “Point Back -Close in 3rd” makes a very good anchor. A follower can also step back on the Right foot on “4” and drag the Left foot back through “&a 5&a” and close the Left foot behind the Right foot on “6.” The whole point is that an ANCHOR is an ACTION and not a specific Rhythm, nor a specific Foot Position. A recent discovery noted the fact that many dancers who “anchor in 3rd foot position,” actually stay centered over their FORWARD foot. The feet APPEAR to be in the right place - but the partners LACK the connection of the CPB of both partners, that the anchor was designed to deliver. ANCHOR (or ANCHOR UNIT) - (1) An Anchor is NOT a foot position and not a Rhythm. It is a partner connection in West Coast Swing, achieved when both partners place their CPB (Center Point of Balance) behind the heel of the forward foot. (2) An Anchor is danced on the last two beats (last Unit) of each basic, fundamental Step Pattern in West Coast Swing. (3) A feeling of body leverage that balances the resistance of both partners. (4) Each partner is responsible for establishing their own individual anchor.

Historical Note:

The term “ANCHOR” was coined by GSDTA in the early 1960s to clarify the difference between the “resistance” desired at the end of a West Coast Swing Pattern, and the lack of resistance caused by the 1961 version of a “Coaster” Step. This is one of the major milestones that changed the face of West Coast Swing.

...Now then.....discuss...

[heatherleigh]

Nice article Victor! Thanks for sharing!

I've been talking with people about this for a while, picking their brains and trying to figure out what on earth is going on out there.

I like how this article defines anchor. I love how it says "An anchor is an action". It truly is, and there is a definite breathing that happens at the anchor. For most people(or for those that finally do learn) it is taught best by the basic obligatory triple step in third position... right? This is what it is taught.

But you watch, and I won't even say "champions", but those who have earned your respect as a dancer(and some are champions, and some are people around our dance communities), and most of them, for me, understand the anchor and the breath of it and know how to play with it as well.

While I wouldn't want to see someone do a kick ball change at every anchor(Hollywood Style LH did not suite me), playing with variations to me is acceptable... as long as the timing continues to be swing.

And I don't think putting basic triple anchors(not rock and goes, but true beginner class triple in place) means that your any less advanced though either.

Lots and lots of food for thought! Thanks again Victor!



Found this article on The Greater Phoenix Swing Dance Club's web page...it was in thier recent newsletter (June)...the article was written by Skippy Blair.

ANCHORS in West Coast Swing (Judging)

Skippy Blair©
5-20-05 - Update: 2-07, 4-08

Because of recent Intensives, discussions with judges, contestants, and even potential judges, we have netted new insights into the art of “anchoring.” During a Session in Seattle, someone was concerned about an out-of-state competition where they had recently competed. (Not in Seattle) This particular person had judged one couple very LOW, because of a lack of anchoring. The judge’s statement was: “I never saw an anchor in the whole routine.” Not having observed that competition, I could not state an opinion. Then, someone else asked: “What did you see that convinced you they were not anchoring?” The reply was “I didn’t see any triples on the end of their patterns.”


Several participants discussed that “Triples” were not crucial to create an anchor. A few were definite that triples should be present in the dance, but were certainly not REQUIRED as part of EVERY anchor. They knew their definitions and from later reports, I know that it was a very rewarding discussion. The discussion showed that there were a few people who were unaware that an anchor could be danced without a Triple. It also showed that

MANY were already very much aware, that it was not the Triple itself that defined an anchor.


Educational Note: An anchor is neither a Foot Position nor a Dance Rhythm. An ANCHOR is an ACTION. Many dancers do Triples in 3rd foot position, but still do not achieve the “connection” that qualifies the move as an anchor. An ANCHOR is an “away” connection from one partner’s center (CPB) to the other partner’s center. It can easily be achieved by both partners placing their Center Point of Balance (CPB) BEHIND the heel of their forward foot. This strengthens the partner connection at the point where the anchor takes place. This also alerts each partner that they have completed what they intended and are now ready to move on. TEACHING someone to do an “ANCHOR Triple, in 3rd foot position” is a good basic teaching technique in the beginning stages. The very next stage is to make them aware that their center (CPB) should be behind the heel of the forward foot.

An Anchor Connection can be done using various rhythms: A “Point Back -Close in 3rd” makes a very good anchor. A follower can also step back on the Right foot on “4” and drag the Left foot back through “&a 5&a” and close the Left foot behind the Right foot on “6.” The whole point is that an ANCHOR is an ACTION and not a specific Rhythm, nor a specific Foot Position. A recent discovery noted the fact that many dancers who “anchor in 3rd foot position,” actually stay centered over their FORWARD foot. The feet APPEAR to be in the right place - but the partners LACK the connection of the CPB of both partners, that the anchor was designed to deliver. ANCHOR (or ANCHOR UNIT) - (1) An Anchor is NOT a foot position and not a Rhythm. It is a partner connection in West Coast Swing, achieved when both partners place their CPB (Center Point of Balance) behind the heel of the forward foot. (2) An Anchor is danced on the last two beats (last Unit) of each basic, fundamental Step Pattern in West Coast Swing. (3) A feeling of body leverage that balances the resistance of both partners. (4) Each partner is responsible for establishing their own individual anchor.

Historical Note:

The term “ANCHOR” was coined by GSDTA in the early 1960s to clarify the difference between the “resistance” desired at the end of a West Coast Swing Pattern, and the lack of resistance caused by the 1961 version of a “Coaster” Step. This is one of the major milestones that changed the face of West Coast Swing.

...Now then.....discuss...

[Burger]

Great post Victor.

I think the key is that teachers globally need to agree on this concept and inform students of what an anchor is. Personally, I have always seen it taught that the actual triple is the anchor. It's scary to think that all teachers and judges don't agree on what an anchor is and it is apparently being used as judging criteria.

I guess the question is, does everyone agree and how does the community as a whole get educated?

And yes, I agree with Skippy's article. :)

[Purkey]

I agree. This is an excellent article. I too, Burger, have always seen the anchor taught as a triple step...creating the stretch on the settle. There is certainly lots of food for thought and digestion here.

[-festa-]

Skippy's artictle is a wonderful articulation of anchoring and its current state of being in WCS. I find it perfect in its definition in the Educational Note of what an anchor is--and to me, what SWING is, as this leveraged centering separates swing from any other dance. What I find very important is the fact that the anchor by definition is 2 beats. This should be heavily stressed, as anything less makes it Hustle--with a 'check and go' type of movement. A true anchor is a counterbalanced settling for a distinct moment , followed by the leaders' redirecting of the followers settle. This is a complex sharing of balance. It is what makes swing dancing, REAL swing dancing, West Coast of otherwise, a hard dance to learn. But the payoff is well worth the cost as it is also what makes swing so remarkably rewarding.

I do also have to say that the discussion in the Seattle workshop mentioned in Skippy's article smacks to me how ready we are to justify the changes, and perhaps loss of certain dynamic qualities that are the essence of our dance.

[Arjay]

I feel the functionality of the anchor is misunderstood. Because of the overemphasis of stretch and connection as the function of the anchor, dancers have been able to "shortcut" this function by creating stretch and connection without the use of footwork. Some will justify this as acceptable. In certain occasions, i believe it may be fine but not as a basic. However, "monkey see monkey do" more and more people get influenced by this "shortcut" and attempt to create the same effect of eliminating the footwork. Arguing this is "styling" or an anchor substitute.

I teach the functionality of the anchor/triple step as an action that sustains the perpetual movement within the partnership and the individual through changes or transitions that may dissipate through the progression of the dance.
EX: A jogger at coming to a red light at the end of a block does not stop running. He actively sustains his energy running in place to maintain perpetual movement. This energy is like stored potential energy of a natural swing.
This is why it isn't just the dancers that take their triples out that are only at fault. But the dancers that do a triple step but don't know why they are doing a triple step that are also at fault; more like a timestep but not
a triple that "helps sustain perpetual energy through a transition or change"
A triple step used incorrectly is like a child using a word who doesn't know the meaning.
This would then also justify and answer the popular question for followers....
"How do I know when I'm supposed to triple???"
review defined answer above in bold

Why is the issue...not so much what....
If dancers don't know why they need to do something, they have no reason to bother doing it. (like a tap step on 3&4 of a sugar push)
I've asked many students...."why do you triple?""why do you anchor?"
they shrug their shoulders and say "I was told to""I don't know" or they regurgitate some version of the other definitions but again not really "knowing" why.....