Influencing the Community

[Arjay]

It's always been said that the Pros have much influence on the community both positively and negatively. mostly negative...that's why i'm bringing it up...how to make it more positive

Do you agree? think this is true? how much of it is true?


From what I see, I feel that the community has an issue with seeing what they want to see. Even some Pros making you see what they want you to see(not always a bad thing). And perhaps poor judging that reinforces the negative elements to the dance.

An example of each of these mentioned:

Seeing what they want to see:
As mentioned by Deborah in another thread...people seeing or wanting a formula on how to dance or compete. monkey see monkey do right?

I think it's taken too literally when most people don't try to comprehend the philosophy behind some of the actions by the pros....
Most of our growing rising stars are more in a trial and error learning process...
if I do this she does this and vice versa...if i do this when he does this...
(folks, that's like playing chess only one move ahead)

Pros making you see what you want to see
I think the best way to describe this without stepping on my colleagues' toes...our community sometimes loses sight of the functionality of something because we make the aesthetic form of something a priority. was that actually lead and follow or was that a visual lead and visual follow? I think too much emphasis on something not truly lead and not truly followed

Perhaps poor judging reinforcing negative elements of this dance:
How many times I've seen leaders and followers that look pretty good or even just okay, but people complain about not being able to really follow or lead that person. Then again what does that individual care? they made it to finals right? Even choosing a path that gets progressively worse...

I think some judges also go just by instinct how to judge. I think instinct is good but it has to be also reinforced by an understanding of why is something is the way it is.... as mentioned before... functionality and philosophy...not just form...
(I might even go out on a limb here and say this might be one reason to abolishing judges seminars after scoring has been posted)


What I'd like to see and how to make it perhaps a positive influence:

I'd like to see judges and pros working more together to understand each others point of views on the dance to solidify a consistent system and eliminate as many discrepancies as possible.

I'd like to see the community look at this dance more as an art form not as a mathematical equation or formula. Art is not right or wrong... art is not being a cookie cutter of the previous.(I think this can dramatically improve the situation from being a negative influence)More people will then look to being unique

I think I'd like to see people appreciate a little bit more that they get to spend their time on a dance floor rather than any other place in this world...both socially and especially competitively...
Too many people worrying about what other people think... people worrying too much about how many points they have and what division they're dancing in...too many people thinking politics plays a huge part in their development...too many people worried about having a "bad" dance(remember? art...no right or wrong)

[CrazyKate]

Arjay, I think this is a really good topic. It took me a while to get anywhere near something I wanted to post, and I don't feel I'm there yet, but wanted to get something up here.

I think it's true that the pros and judges influence the community. The best form of flattery is imitation; everyone wants to be the best, so they emulate the pros. As you said, judges "reinforce negative elements," which the community reading as what to imitate next.

I think that to "positively" influence this dance that EVERYONE needs to do something different. Don't dance the way that you feel will help you WIN, but dance in the way you want the dance to go next. As Arjay said, it's art...

[heatherleigh]

I have to say that I have been influenced very negatively over the past years at some events... but it was more of a disenchantment by the behaviors "pros" exhibit at events. I'm not talking about during social time, but during ceremonies and awards, show some respect.

Kate, girl you're right. Imitation is the best form of flattery. However, like A said, without understanding the philosophy behind it or having the right tools, then it can become a bad influence on ones dance.

This is an awesome topic. You're just full of deep thoughts!

[Arjay]

Interesting tangent to this topic.....

at what point does someone start becoming an influence on the community?
when they start to succeed at comps? when they actively become more involved? how many events they attend? who they hang out with? when they decide to start teaching? who they take lessons from?

[WestieTash]

I'll take a stab at this one.

On the dance floor, I think a person starts to become an influence once s/he starts to attain a noticeable level of success. I don't care how many events I see Joe Blow at, I won't pay attention to his actions (or which pro he works with, whether he teaches, who his friends are) until he starts placing/winning.

[whipdancer]

I think it's a Catch-22.

You (the generic you, not the specific you) want to do well in your vocation. It is your chosen means of earning a living. You practice and work and strive and learn and all those other things (that can often be summed up as practice, practice, practice and never stop learning).

You've earned your way up. You make the "list". You are now an influencer.

But in your pursuit of making it onto the "list", did you give up anything in your dance? Did you compromise the integrity of your art for success?

I think we will find too often, the answer will be yes. When that happens, we end up with an inferior product. By that I mean, the product that is put on the floor, taught in the workshops and espoused in conversations is mired in "what's popular right at this moment". You end up with a product that does not withstand the test of time.

I also believe that most people don't know the difference.

Whether it's shoes or clothes or this dance, the vast majority of participants have memories only as long as it takes to see "the next big thing".

Forget philosophy of the how and why - most people are NOT capable of understanding. I'm firmly convinced that this is an argument of/for/between the Pro's and the Judges.

I don't think the community can look at this as more of an art form. I simply don't think they are capable. It's not right, nor wrong. It simply is.

But I do expect the Pro's and the Judges to be able to see it as such. To learn to differentiate between pushing the boundaries and fundamentally altering the dance. To recognize that change for the sake of change is not really a valid line of reasoning. To recognize that which is part of the dance and that which is not. And to be able to speak toward that end.

When the judges/pros do that, the community will accept. And the community will be better off for it. More importantly, the community can begin to understand why - even if they never will fully get it.

[whipdancer]

Interesting tangent to this topic.....

at what point does someone start becoming an influence on the community?
when they start to succeed at comps? when they actively become more involved? how many events they attend? who they hang out with? when they decide to start teaching? who they take lessons from?

see below.
Sort of.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Not usually.
No.

I think it's a combination of active involvement, number of events, and who they know.

I think it would be an interesting experiment (and I think it would make a lot of people very unhappy), to test this. I think you will find that active involvement + a high number of events + who you know + some level of ability (not a lot, mind you) = success at comps;

[dancin_weezie]

LOVE this question!

I truly believe you have influence on the people you personally hang/party/chill with at events and in your local communities.

I go to many, many, many events a year and I don't try to emulate someone just because they are a pro... I may emulate a move or a technique if I like it, but not their personalilty per se.

We influence our friends and acquaintances at events - we influence the people who ask us for advice (sometimes).

I have a pretty good rep for being brutally honest when you ask me a question (if you really want the answer :)) Lots of novice/Int/Adv dancers ask me questions of all sorts - not because they want to be ME, they are merely seeking an opinion.

So, those of you out there who are looking to emulate someone - emulate someone you respect. Not because of how they dance, but because of the type of person they are. There will be a lot less drama! :eek:

Arjay, were you looking for "dance" emulation or "personality" emulation, or both?

[westcoastjunkie]

So, those of you out there who are looking to emulate someone - emulate someone you respect. Not because of how they dance, but because of the type of person they are. There will be a lot less drama! :eek:

Amen. Luckily, there are plenty of really nice people who are also beautiful dancers to learn from.

[SHORTYJOY]

Amen. Luckily, there are plenty of really nice people who are also beautiful dancers to learn from.

This is interesting. (My comment is honest-albeit a little strange)-This is exactly why I love the local teachers I work with when I can.

I chose my first instructor because she came recommended by a new friend. When I got to know her, and realized she was an incredible, moral person with a great deal of integrity...I felt a bond to her and wanted to keep learning from her.

My second instructor--he offered to teach me and I felt good about because I came to know him in the community and trust his ability to be consistent in his dance and his conduct.

I honestly do not have a great deal of drive to go out of my way--to take lessons from Pro's that I do not know. I am sure they have valuable things to teach me. When I have taken workshops and privates at events at which theory is taught- they have been quite insightful. However, the desire to really learn from one instructor for me stems out of a feeling of connection to them and respect for the moral code and life choices of that individual.

[christina]

When I think of the people who influence our community, I don't always think of pros for the sake of their being pros.

I think of people who have a) actively contributed to the community and b) people who are looked up to by a majority of the community.

Many pros fall into one or both of the categories, some into neither. Within the macrocosm of WCS, the pros that are an influence are simply the overt respresentation - people who's names the entire community knows and who are visually presenting something that other dancers can emulate.

There are many people behind the scenes running the community (category a) and as a result are influencing and not all are well known names:

- people deciding how to run a local dance and a visitor who takes some of what they see back to their local dance
- the people deciding how to run a national event whos format is then copied by other events
- the people who decide how best to approach judging and relay that to the judges; the people who decided we needed a consistant judging method and created the WSDC and NASDE
- the people who make sure they talk to new dancers and encourage them to continue dancing, etc.

In their visual role other dancers are going to imitate the dress (on and off the floor) or styling nuances of a pro dancer as well as their music for routines (although this rests in balance with the influence that DJs have), and their behavior (on and off the floor).

Our community is a mini-Hollywood: pros are like the actor celebrities on the screen and in our faces. There are many other rolls that go into making our community what it is and of all the people out there - some are a name we all know, some are not. Some work hard to change and direct the growth of the community, others do so without effort, and yet others are just a pretty face that we then ignore.

[chandra]

see below.
Sort of.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Not usually.
No.

I think it's a combination of active involvement, number of events, and who they know.

I think it would be an interesting experiment (and I think it would make a lot of people very unhappy), to test this. I think you will find that active involvement + a high number of events + who you know + some level of ability (not a lot, mind you) = success at comps;

I dont know that I necessarily think that would work. Ive seen it a number of times - someone that is a moderately good dancer - travels to EVERY event, knows all the right people, and yet never succeeds in competition. We all know 1 or 2 of them I would bet. I can think of more than that off hand.

Maybe those people succeed more than they WOULD have if they didn't travel so much, and know so many people... I don't know.

But in the end, I think the person that travels that much, and hangs out with those people IS going to get better, and have more than just "Some level of ability" so the experiment becomes hard to test over time.

[Arjay]

How many of you view that "how one influences a community" is also part of "playing politics"

if so...are there those that are a little fake because they are only thinking of influencing the community for their own personal benefit? just tossing that one out there...

[dancin_weezie]

I think people who play politics (and there are many!) only influence a community if how they behave brings them success and people take note of that.

There is one person in particular who never mentions an actual opinion - they just tweak their views depending on who they are hanging with at the moment. IT drives me crazy!!!

Trying to be PC all the time is boring and a potential nightmare - you have to be very careful what you say to who, because you could easily be caught out.

Sure, there are times I wish I had kept my mouth shut, but hey - I never have to worry about being busted :tonguesmilie: