Do you or your ego compete?

[christina]

I'm about to be a but ornery; just call me Hobbes for my lack of faith in mankind when it comes to pinning a number on your back - I am picking a fight here. I want someone to prove me wrong. Make me believe you. Because from what I hear most of the time - I am skeptical. People say one thing about why they compete but act in a completely different manner. Prove me wrong after I make annonymous digs at people in my attempt to prove a point.

As I was replying to Arjay's thread about instructors arranging strictly partners, I made a comment in reply to his about comfort level. He asked, (paraphrasing): "do we chose strictly partners that we are comfortable with because we want to place well?"

My opinion, yes. As far as I'm concerned, that's why we compete - to place well if not to win. And through that process, gain points/move up the hierarchy of divisions/become a world renown superstar/have other's stroking our egos.

I'll call a spade a spade. We compete to for the recognition that comes with doing well.

Time after time, friends of mine who just "compete for fun and don't care how they do" are lying to themselves. It's something they say to cushion and prepare themselves for the worst. They get upset when they don't make finals or place well. They make excuses blaming the music/their partner/the floor. Some go back to their rooms and cry, others become moody like a petulent teenager.

I also don't believe the people who claim it's a way to gauge their own dance skill/level. Because they are often basing that off if they make finals and their placement. If someone were truely doing this - and I'm sure there are some - they would be taking regular classes or privates to improve in addition to their competing (the majority I know are not) and would be asking their instructor to watch the competition in order to give them feedback. They would seek out the judges for their opinions (again, some do this, but it seems not many). And they would study their own dancing and that of other's to understand their own placement.

I know we all dance for different reasons - but I don't believe we compete for different reasons.

[bethany]

You can add pro-am strictlies into the ego-stroking competitions, seeing as some of the pro-am divisions don't even award money to the top placements. You know the old saying, "I went to (location) and all I got was this lousy t-shirt." haha The am pays for the private lessons, the competition fee, so they want SOME sort of recognition back for all that.

[coastswing]

Isn't the point of a competition to try to win? Yes, it should be something that is fun, but it's still a competition.... you are supposed to compete. The ego will hurt if you don't do well. It's human nature. But not doing well is a great tool for learning. Some may not see it that way, but everyone's different. So be it.

It's life, you're going to have people react in all different ways. And yes, they are not the most desirable ways to behave but they are the way that some process having a bruised ego. But those people do continue to compete each and every time. So they get over it. If you have someone that gets nasty if they don't do well...you should rethink the value of that relationship.

I enter every competition with the fantasy in my head of hearing my name as the winner of the competition and everyone standing in their seats as I give a bow. Ain't nothin wrong with that. Reality sets in and I stand on my seat and cheer for the one that did win.

I'm proving your point, but happy to do so!

[notfromchicago]

I would first like to applaud you for saying what few think and even fewer know or even realize.
Second I'll give you the reasons I compete. There are several and I'm not the best with words so bear with me if you will.
I compete partly because I do like having the recognition and having my ego stroked I'll admit that strait up. There is no reason to hide that but I also compete because I know that the recognition will get me closer to my goal of being a full time dance instructor. Without name recognition I'd never make it. I wouldn't. I also compete because I enjoy it. I enjoy getting out on the floor and dancing with my partner and just letting loose and having fun. I want my partner to feel good and I try to make that happen by dancing the best I can and placing well hopefully to make them feel good about themselves. Thats why I compete.

[SoundInMotionDJ]

Isn't the point of a competition to try to win?

Not always. If I measured my competitive success by the number of 1st place finishes...then it was a dismal failure.

I compete(d) because it provides definite deadlines for improvement.
I compete(d) because it provides an excuse to see friends.
I compete(d) because it provides a creative performance outlet that I would not otherwise have.
I compete(d) because it provided a way to gauge improvement.

Winning is fun. But the "returns" on the "investment" are strongly aligned with finding other reasons to keep going.

--Stan Graves

[Burger]

I compete because I enjoy competition. I am a competitive person and enjoy the challenge. I have competed in all sorts of things my entire life, as I'm sure many others have.

I don't judge my dance level based on competition. Example: At one event I didn't make finals in the J&J, but practically every girl who did make finals came up to me and said that they wished I had made finals so they would have a chance to draw me. That felt great, even better than making finals or winning. It felt good that they wanted me to make finals because of my dancing, not because I was recognized as a finalist etc.

When I compete, do I want to win? Yes, of course, I think everyone who enters a competition wants to win. Do I get upset when I don't make finals? Sure, I always want to make finals so I have a chance at placing or winning. :) Do I let it ruin my day, weekend, month, year? NO!

I go by this: There is always someone who is better than you. Don't take competition to heart.

If I had a choice between competitions and social dancing, I would pick social dancing because I love this dance and sharing it with everyone. Competition is just something added on top of this great dance that I enjoy.

Oh yeah, about the strictly partners. I pick my strictly partners based on who I really love to dance with. Their are certain people who I just connect better with and that I really love to dance with for that reason. I don't pick partners based on the fact that I can do well with that partner. I want to enjoy the competition and my partner, if we do well or not.

[chandra]

If one wasnt entering to place or win, would they really call it competition?

I agree completely. Competing is about the competition. Im a competitive person, therefor I want to do well when I compete. Im fine with that... *shrug*

Have I let competition results get me down before? Yeah, sure. Very often? Nah, not really... Of course it hurts when you don't do well, I suppose the important thing is to just keep in perspective. Again, I dont think there is anything wrong with feeling a little but down cause you didnt make finals.
What I dont like is when people start running off about others who did make finals, or biast judges, or bad partners. That, IMHO is not necessary.

[SoundInMotionDJ]

If one wasnt entering to place or win, would they really call it competition?

Because the Vast Majority(tm) of guys would never have shown up the first time if you called it a "Dance Recital"???

Tongue Out

[bethany]

We all know that there are other dancers out there who dance with their egos, though. The people who, when you go to congratulate them, say, "Oh, yeah, I knew I was going to win," or something to that extent. People who make it their LIFE to compete. Live, breathe, eat competitions. If I'm reading christina's post right, this is the type of person I'm imagining and have encountered in the past.

I once had a dancer ask me, "What's the difference between being boastful and being proud of your accomplishments?" after I had shared with her that people were turned off by her ego. Maybe that's the question that should be asked.

[christina]

I actually started this thread to spur discussion of the various extremes ego holds over competing.

My example had slightly different take on it that started this all - although bethany's example is a very valid form of how the ego is involved, my thoughts actually stemmed from the opposite side people who would get super upset about never making finals, threaten to never compete again, only to be first in line to register for the next J&J.

If you asked them why they competed, the answer was "I just do it for fun". Well in my mind that's a very weird idea of fun if you ruin hours of late night social dancing to cry in your room and ***** about the judges. They aren't proud of their friends who do well and as a result bring down others around them into their pity party.

What I was going for was to get people thinking about why they really compete. How many people do you know that started to dance so they could compete? Probably not many. We get into it for more social reasons and as we become more hooked and improve, as our friends go to events, we are encouraged to compete whether or not we are ready skill-wise or emotionally. It creates a lot of ego driven problems and is part of what makes many competitors so points-driven for validation.

Sure there are people who find competing fun - but they are also out to win or for recognition - that's part of the fun in it. However, most people won't admit it. When you ask someone why they compete, they never say "I want the recognition of doing well" but if you were to question them further, that's ultimately what the answer will be.

(Sorry this is a bit scattered, I have a lot more thoughts on it all but only a short amount of time to answer at the moment)

[christina]

Ok, I have a few minutes to further explain myself and why I started this.

I am a great example of the ego driven competitiveness that I see in others. And I know how much it's affected me; how much I didn't want to be the person I'd become because I needed the approval and accolades of others, the affirmation that I was a good dancer damnit!

I don't compete anymore. The other weekend at Tea Party a number of friends tried to encourage me back into competing and others were surprized I wasn't saying I would have done well.

My reason was that I was allowing my ego to take over. While I never cried over not making finals, there were instances where I got super moody and upset and found myself assesing my own performance - but basing how I did off of where a few rival dancers were placing in comparison to me. I made the usual excuses (it's my different style, such and such judge doesn't like me, why do I always get the beginner lead, someone was sandbagging, floor was too crowded, etc.). Also I wasn't improving as fast as I wanted to be (and by improving you should read: advancing in competition).

It came to a head when I didn't make finals at an event, skipped late night because I was in a bad mood, rescheduled my flight and came home at the crack of dawn.

At that point, dancing wasn't fun anymore. And that's why I started to dance. I didn't walk into my first class with a need to impress people*. I took a class because I like to dance. Because without WCS, I will still put on my favorite songs and dance around my apartment until the wee hours of the morning.

And the fact that all my dance interaction was becoming about competing was bothering me. I still want to grow as a dancer - I like the learning process, but I don't want it to be at the mercy of my competition, insecure, please tell me you like to dance with me ego.

Like I said above in this post, I see that in a lot of people. It's not just a me thing. I see people who only dance socially as a means to an end for competitions, people who claim they're never competing again only to be anxiously waiting for their number to be called the next week, people who get mad when better dancers don't ask them to dance.

I think if more people were willing to recognize why they really compete, we'd all be a lot happier. It's not good to supress your emotions and feelings - when you do, you end up being the person hating the world and changing your flight home when you could be having a grand ol' time for hours dancing with your friends and not being judged.


*this is a much longer and complicated subject than I can do justice to in a simple post, it extends outside the relm of competition. I could start another thread about ego on the social floor, or in class. But I'll spare you. As long as people are willing to share and delve into themselves, I think we'd find a lot of other reasons for why we compete - why we dance - and they'd go beyond a simple word like ego and into our psyche's because something more is driving us, otherwise we wouldn't be so passionate and addicted to what we do.

[Jerry Wang]

Christina - I want to understand what you're saying is that people compete for recognition eventhough we dance for different reasons, right? Can you clarify on what kind of recognition? Reason I ask is that I know for myself, I'm not competing for any recognition unless its the recognition to myself that I'm improving in my dancing and even if I do well in comps, I know its not a clear indiction of my dancing ability. But I admit, in order for me to get to what I believe now, I traveled that dark road where competition started to consume me.

[whipkitten]

Cool topic!

I've discussed this with various friends in the past. Me and my friends compete for any and all of the following reasons:

1. We LOVE being in the spotlight and being the center of attention, even if we don't want to admit it otherwise. Tongue Out
2. We LOVE competitions. I am a competitive person and it does come out from time to time in a BIG way. But I work at keeping it "tamed" for every day life. Dance comps allow me to bring that out in a fun way.
3. We LOVE the invisible trophies - when i don't do well, I totally appreciate those people who come to tell me how I should have placed better or they wished they could have drawn me or how much they just enjoy watching me dance and have fun.
4. We love those VISIBLE trophies as well! I like trophies. They are pretty. ;) Also I like taking calculated risks - and this is a form of calculated risk. The payoff is that i might get to get some money back for my weekend! :tonguesmilie:
5. We LOVE the adrenalin rush. Who hasn't felt that high when they've just had an AWESOME dance with some new partner in a J&J?

The flip side is that there truly are people that I know who I genuinely believe that they do this for fun. They've competed for years, they don't place and they don't expect to place. They do it for the sheer joy of competing with their friends. They don't pout, they don't sulk, they are always out there cheering their hearts out for their friends and they are the first ones to tell EVERYONE when you've done well in your competition.

One more thing. I was one of the first ones of my friends to start competing. When they started competing, I thought it might be weird, all competing against each other. Instead it has been an awesome experience that I get to share with my friends. We support each other, we cheer each other on, we celebrate when we do well, we hug each and give encouraging words when we don't do well. If it wasn't for this support system, even if I continued to do well, I don't know that I would continue to compete. Then it would truly be just eating away at my competitive side (which has reared its ugly head in the past!).

[westcoastjunkie]

I am a great example of the ego driven competitiveness that I see in others. And I know how much it's affected me; how much I didn't want to be the person I'd become because I needed the approval and accolades of others, the affirmation that I was a good dancer damnit!

My reason was that I was allowing my ego to take over. While I never cried over not making finals, there were instances where I got super moody and upset .... I made the usual excuses (it's my different style, such and such judge doesn't like me, why do I always get the beginner lead, someone was sandbagging, floor was too crowded, etc.). Also I wasn't improving as fast as I wanted to be (and by improving you should read: advancing in competition).

Everyone has an ego, the key is to be aware of it, acknowlege it and not let it get the better of you. I do think that many dancers are encouraged to start competing either too soon or without being set up realistically as to what to expect and how the system works. There are soooooooooo many variables in a J&J: partner draw, experience or lack of in competitors, music draw, judges, size of division, nerves, lack of sleep, too much alcohol. It's really unfortunate that many take it personally and/or resent that it can take quite a bit of time to find success.

It came to a head when I didn't make finals at an event, skipped late night because I was in a bad mood, rescheduled my flight and came home at the crack of dawn.

WOW. :eek: I'm not sure if the problem here was ego or perspective. Girl, it's just a Jack-n-Jill!!! I think life is what you make out of it. Sounds like you made J&Js be your sole validation as a dancer and not much else. I've read the other posts on this thread and it seems like people come into a J&J for a variety of reasons which work for them and give them satisfaction.

Like I said above in this post, I see that in a lot of people. It's not just a me thing. I see people who only dance socially as a means to an end for competitions, people who claim they're never competing again only to be anxiously waiting for their number to be called the next week, people who get mad when better dancers don't ask them to dance.

Maybe their egos run amuck, then again, people often say things they don't mean when they are hurt or upset and sometimes it takes time to get over it. I think there's also something to be said for not giving up.

I think if more people were willing to recognize why they really compete, we'd all be a lot happier. It's not good to supress your emotions and feelings - when you do, you end up being the person hating the world and changing your flight home when you could be having a grand ol' time for hours dancing with your friends and not being judged.

Is this really happening often? I try to stay away from the gossips at events but if non-finalists were regularly sulking in their rooms and leaving early I think we all would notice. I'm wondering if "we" is the correct pronoun here? ;)

As for me, when I did compete several years ago, I went into it with 2 goals: Have fun and dance well. My hope was that if I did 1 and 2 it would increase my chances of making finals, depending upon the event. That I guess would be for my ego's benefit. However, some events I never had an expectation of making finals but chose to compete anyway. Looking back would have to say that when I danced to impress or show how good I was (ego calling the shots), I did not do well, but in events where I danced more conservatively and just tried to do the best with what I was given and enjoy the experience, I did do well. Go figure? :cool:

[bethany]

It's not that shocking that christina was so upset after not making finals. I've heard of others who will cry in the public restroom stalls after not making finals, cursing out the judges or their bad draws (btw, NEVER name-drop in a public place!). It happens. But perspective is our best friend. It's a HOBBY! We all have jobs. :)

[HoosierIUSB]

Ok, I have a few minutes to further explain myself and why I started this.

I am a great example of the ego driven competitiveness that I see in others. And I know how much it's affected me; how much I didn't want to be the person I'd become because I needed the approval and accolades of others, the affirmation that I was a good dancer damnit!

I don't compete anymore. The other weekend at Tea Party a number of friends tried to encourage me back into competing and others were surprized I wasn't saying I would have done well.

My reason was that I was allowing my ego to take over. While I never cried over not making finals, there were instances where I got super moody and upset and found myself assesing my own performance - but basing how I did off of where a few rival dancers were placing in comparison to me. I made the usual excuses (it's my different style, such and such judge doesn't like me, why do I always get the beginner lead, someone was sandbagging, floor was too crowded, etc.). Also I wasn't improving as fast as I wanted to be (and by improving you should read: advancing in competition).

It came to a head when I didn't make finals at an event, skipped late night because I was in a bad mood, rescheduled my flight and came home at the crack of dawn.

At that point, dancing wasn't fun anymore. And that's why I started to dance. I didn't walk into my first class with a need to impress people*. I took a class because I like to dance. Because without WCS, I will still put on my favorite songs and dance around my apartment until the wee hours of the morning.

And the fact that all my dance interaction was becoming about competing was bothering me. I still want to grow as a dancer - I like the learning process, but I don't want it to be at the mercy of my competition, insecure, please tell me you like to dance with me ego.

Like I said above in this post, I see that in a lot of people. It's not just a me thing. I see people who only dance socially as a means to an end for competitions, people who claim they're never competing again only to be anxiously waiting for their number to be called the next week, people who get mad when better dancers don't ask them to dance.

I think if more people were willing to recognize why they really compete, we'd all be a lot happier. It's not good to supress your emotions and feelings - when you do, you end up being the person hating the world and changing your flight home when you could be having a grand ol' time for hours dancing with your friends and not being judged.


*this is a much longer and complicated subject than I can do justice to in a simple post, it extends outside the relm of competition. I could start another thread about ego on the social floor, or in class. But I'll spare you. As long as people are willing to share and delve into themselves, I think we'd find a lot of other reasons for why we compete - why we dance - and they'd go beyond a simple word like ego and into our psyche's because something more is driving us, otherwise we wouldn't be so passionate and addicted to what we do.


OMG - this is the best post on WCS that I have ever seen - describes me to a "T".

I've been close to taking that flight home, but somehow I'm always able to "right myself" and get back into social dancing. I really do envy those people who sincerely don't care about competing - especially the ones who drop out who you know could easily place very high. Believe me, I wish I was like that, but I just don't know how to do that - it's almost like with some of us the seriousness of competing is "hard-wired".

I guess we just have to try to tame the seriousness the best we can!

[christina]

Jerry - correct. We decide to start dancing for numerous reasons (it looks fun, to meet people, exercise, etc.) As for recognition, I'm lumping all types together. Some want the recognition that comes with placing well - the recognition of an expert. Other's want recognition of peers - someone you've never danced with before has a chance to see how good you are or you want to impress your friends. Runs the gamut.

westcoastjunkie - my example is an extreme. But the concept is fairly common. I could name quite a few people you know and dance with on a regular basis who vary in degree of moodiness because they did not make finals. Is it rational to get so worked up over a hobby and have this great desire to impress those around you? No. But the fact that so many threads on here, other boards, and in person center around competition - is the point system adequate? what does it take to place better? etc. all indicates that competition and all the craziness that comes with it is a dominant proponant of our dance community. If it wasn't we'd all happily social dance night after night with all levels of dancer and competitions would slowly fall by the wayside. Instead they're growing in number of entrants and as you mentioned in another thread we've even added divisions.

And you're right - it is JUST A JACK & JILL! my ego got out of control; I gained perspective by spending a lot of time thinking about why I competed and why I allowed it to get to me , and I decided to stop before I let my ego get further out of control. Now I go to events, socialize during the day, dance all night, and its a blast - I was able to regain the joy I had discovered when I first started dancing and lost through competing.

[WestieTash]

Why isn't it rational to have a negative reaction when you don't make finals?

While it is true this is only a hobby for many of us, that shouldn't diminish its importance to us. I don't know about some of you, but I have invested a TON of time and money on this hobby. And if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it well. So why shouldn't I be upset if I feel like I'm not getting the "proper" return on my investment?

[christina]

Why isn't it rational to have a negative reaction when you don't make finals?

Just the extreme to which I went was irrational.

[CALI DOLL]

Interesting. I've been having this discussion with a friend of mine recently.

Regarding competing:

I enjoy it very much and that's why I continue to do it.... As others have said before me, I'm a competitive person by nature and I absolutely enjoy the recognition of doing well. I've also fallen victim to feeling unreasonably down about not making finals (beating myself up and making excuses for why it didn't happen etc).

Recently, I've begun to look at competing differently. Do I still want to win? Absolutely! But, I take it much less seriously than I did in the past.

I think competing is often times a total crap shoot. LOL! So many things have to happen for you to come out on top:

The stars have to align with you and your partner
The judges have to be impartial
You have to be seen in a pool of any number of folks
etc etc

So, my outlook is now "Sure, compete because it's fun but do NOT do it because "OMG, I must make finals!!..."

My competing goals are as follows: Have fun and do my best. In that order.

The rest is out of my hands.

Speaking for myself, when I first started dancing a year ago I put a lot of weight into making finals. Actually I think that's understandable when one hasn't done it yet...it's a goal that you want to reach so badly. And at that time, being so new in the whole competing thing, I probably put more weight into making finals than was necessary.

Ultimately though, "points" and making finals don't necessarily equal skill. And it's just not wise to put a lot of weight into something that is affected by so many factors (some of which you have NO control over and others have nothing to do with how well you dance).

So, I compete because it's fun....and, I could win. :D

[HoosierIUSB]

Hey Christina - thanks for starting and continuing a great thread - has really helped me! :)

Hoosier

[Arjay]

I think what drives us to compete changes based on our status both on and off the dance floor. It is also impacted by the variable around us, whether it's environment, event, long/short term, peers and community.

When I first competed, curiosity was my drive to compete...for what competition meant to me, to others, what i was capable of, and curiosity of music.

When I started doing well, to win and yes a bit of ego was my drive.

When I didn't do well, to improve and learn more about myself was my drive.

As a teacher, validation is my drive to compete and to legitimize what I teach is applicable on the social floor as on the competitive floor.

As a musician and artist, to illustrate art is my drive to compete and to be expressive on the social floor as on the competitive floor.

As a professional, to make a living is part of my drive to compete and build my income.

When Melissa and I were the most recently established pros, our drive to compete was to validate our existence amongst the already established pros. to illustrate that we offer something beyond what is already offered.

Again as a teacher, my drive to compete to encourage competing to our students to help build confidence and help set goals by example.

Ego is the catalyst and the chemical reaction to some these elements, sometimes enhancing, augmenting or suppressing our drive.