Common Music Defintions [Archive]

SoundInMotionDJ

03-26-2008, 01:15 PM

Question - this very well is a different thread possibility and very well in line with where this thread has ended up......as a head judge/event director when providing a choice I very often get the questions, well what is fast? What is Slow? Define Blues? etc.. Is there any way comp DJs from around the country can get together and create a catalog or standard definition for these song choice types? It would be great to include that in something like the rules or provide at the meetings. To have a standard BPM or classification would be awesome. Maybe it already exists among DJs but it’s not common knowledge.

So, Doug's questions are:

What is slow?
What is fast?
Define blues.

If you would like to add any questions, please do.
--Stan Graves

SoundInMotionDJ

03-26-2008, 01:40 PM

What is slow?
What is fast?

I think that the easiest way to handle this question is to define the tempo ranges using beats per minute, rather than labels like "slow" and "fast."

The tempo window for music has been changing. 20 years ago "slow" was 120bpm, and fast was 160bpm! :eek:

I think that even if you say "slow" you should add: "...and that means between 95bpm and 105bpm..." (or whatever the range is that's going to be used).

If I had to define ranges for a competition in 2008, they would probably look something like this:

Slow: 95bpm-105bpm
Med: 100bpm-110bpm
Fast: 114bpm-120bpm

Tho, for the life of me, I can't remember the last time I played a song for a J&J or SS that was 120bpm! And, yes, there is some overlap in those ranges....but at least "slow" and "fast" have some room between them. In another year, I'd probably need to revisit those numbers.

Define blues.

Well...it's been a while since my "History of blues" music appreciation class...but...here goes:

Blues is a vocal and instrumental form music that emerged from the African-American communities in the US and is based on spirituals, work songs, and simple rhymed ballads. Blues lyrics are typically narrative. Typical themes in the music center on sadness, loss, struggle, depression, and a "down" spiritual condition.

Typical blues instruments are guitar, piano, trombone, drums, harmonica, sax, trumpet, and vocals. Blues music forms the foundation for R&B, jazz, rock & roll, bluegrass, heavy metal and hip-hop. Blues is marked by the presence of third, fifth, and seventh notes (also called 'blue' or 'bent' notes). Early blues music was not defined in terms of chord progressions, with 8, 9 or 12 bars commonly represented. By the 1930's 12bar blues became a standard chord progression. Lyrics typically end in the 10th or early 11th bar, with the final two bars reserved for an instrumental "break."

There are many common forms of the lyrics and instrumentation, call-and-response is probably the most common. This structure finds it's way into blues music from both spirituals and work-songs. Early blues lyrics were often a single line repeated four times with vocal emphasis changing from iteration to iteration. A modern form of call-and-response is evident in lyrical forms that offer a repeated line with a concluding answer or statement.

How's that? Or are you looking for a list of artists? :tonguesmilie:

--Stan Graves

drousar

03-26-2008, 02:17 PM

swingdj

03-26-2008, 02:23 PM

To be honest i have to read your post yet, but to be clear, really my question is....

can we can get a standard list of DJ definitions so we are all, Event Directors, Head Judges, competitors, and comp DJs, speaking the same langueage? or does one exist already?

Doug...there is no such thing as of now....what are you looking for on this list? Give me an example...

SoundInMotionDJ

03-26-2008, 02:29 PM

To be honest i have to read your post yet, but to be clear, really my question is....

can we can get a standard list of DJ definitions so we are all, Event Directors, Head Judges, competitors, and comp DJs, speaking the same langueage?

No.

or does one exist already?

No.

To elaborate...tempo is easy to define. The bpm of a song is the bpm of a song. But "slow"...WTF is that? What time is it? What event is it? What dance do most people want to do?

"Slow" for slow-whip is 50bpm!
"Slow" for lindy is 120bpm!
"Slow" for WCS is anywhere from 80 to 100bpm depending on the context.

Once you get past tempo, someone will ask for a definition of "energy" and then the gloves will really come off.

Faster = more energy
Louder = more energy

What if the songs are the same volume, and the same tempo. What comes next in defining "energy"?

Does Elvis' "Fever" (120bpm) have more energy than Tom Waits "Heart Attack & Vine" (90bpm)? Are you sure? Will everyone agree?

--Stan Graves

drousar

03-26-2008, 02:37 PM

Doug...there is no such thing as of now....what are you looking for on this list? Give me an example...

First what I am really looking for is, well, not to have 20 different DJs tell me what their personal feeling of what Slow means, but rather for 20 DJs to get together and come to a common consensus and provide that knowledge to those who seek it.

Like Stan's post, that dictionary, could be reviewed yearly by the group and make any changes necessary to fall in line with the times.

So, on the cuff, that document would look something like this....

Contemporary: Songs that are current
Examples: Beer Barrel Polka by Bratz and Cheese
Row Row Row Your Boat by Dfresh

Blues: Songs about waking up in the morning
Examples: Woke Up This Morning by Dima
It's Too Early to Rise by Dima
Do you I really Have to Get Up for that Meeting by Dima

Funk: Songs that smell bad

Fast: BPM Range 500 to 550
Examples: Blah by er

Slow: BPM Range -150 to -100
Examples: Geesh by Ugh

I know I am being a little weird but in all honestly I wanted to be a little "out there" as so nothing I typed as examples would be taking literally.

I guess as a collaborative group you would know what kind of requests you get from your ED and HJ and would be able to put something together to meet their needs.

This is a fresh topic for me as the last couple of events have run or worked I received a lot of inquires about the fast and slow selections and the next question that statement is usually, well, so-n-so slow blues is different the this-n-the-others slow blues so that impacts my decision.

I think it would be great to be able to promote, regardless of who your DJs are, that slow means X and fast means Y. That's taking absolutely nothing away from the DJS and dancers will still be concerned about the quality of the music, but at least there would be a clear understanding of what falls into that range and song choice.

I don't know, I could be off base and it's just something I see making my events better and all our jobs easier. I could be alone on this?????

drousar

03-26-2008, 02:44 PM

Stan, that's great and I really appreciate your posts, but I have to respectfully disagree.

It may very well be easy for you to define and you may be on par with some other DJs. But I know for a fact that not everyone defines slow whip as 50 BPM.

ACC, in their rules, define it as 50-80 BPM. So right there we have a conflict. So, going by your definition, I would be surprised to enter a comp with the perception that all music will be 50 BPM and get one that is 80 BPM.

edit - I have also, never been given the choice of High Energy and Low Energy.

Like I stated it would up to the group to decide what terms are floating around the most and standardize the definitions.

drousar

03-26-2008, 02:53 PM

What's to say that in a year, you feel slow becomes 90-120 and no one else is on board with your perception. We think it's one thing, you jump in the DJ booth for a comp and give us something different because you feel the range has changed.

Not saying that would specifically happen with you. But can you see that if it's not defined how we can get confused as to what is actually going to get played??

So instead of DJ A just changing what he/she feels is a tempo change, they collaborate with the group and publish the change.

Just a thought.

swingdj

03-26-2008, 02:59 PM

drousar

03-26-2008, 03:08 PM

Doug....the problem is getting DJs to agree on genres, speed, etc is like getting judges to agree on judging......

Oh boy do I hear that! That strikes a chord.

However, an effort has been made to at least educate the competitors what the judges are looking for. In most rules it states that, for example, novice dances will be judged on the three T's and then proceeds to explain what they are and definitions for each. Does that really fall into, or correct, the realm of subjectivity of the judges, no. But what it does do, is put all the competitors on a common ground, knowing what the definition of teamwork is.

Perfect....no. But an effort was/is being made to make the terminology known and better understood.

I guess one can dream, and an effort can be made and if it doesn't work, it was at least tried :)

christina

03-26-2008, 03:25 PM

Isn't this idea similar to the WSDC? A group of people decided there needed to be some sort of structure/standardization, got together, and despite differing ideas made it happen?

True many DJs are going to disagree, but I don't see the harm in getting a bunch of people together to talk through it and create an outline to use as a guideline. And not everyone is going to agree, some egos may be bruised - it doesn't even need to be just DJs - lord knows there are plenty of "DJs" out there. Take the the top in the field, say, Swing DJ Hall of Famers and a few top dancers who understand music and the origins of the dance.

This would be a rather difficult task, but not necessarily impossible.

drousar

03-26-2008, 03:35 PM

Sitting here, thinking more on the topic. I definitely don't want it to be enforced. However, I has an ED of HJ can choose to use the document and provide it to my HDJ and publish it in my rules.

That way at least everyone at my event is on the same page and it's a standard set forth by quality DJs and not some random Joe trying to define the terms.

I like the idea of hall of Famers or something to that nature. Or a group voted on. Something isolating those DJs making a dream team of sorts.

:)

DJing is an art. It's not just playing music. It takes a special talent to produce quality art. An artist isn't always going to produce a great piece, but it's the body of work that defines them as an artist.

I have great respect for all of you. Please know that. I just want to know you all define a paint brush the same way (or a majority of you do). How you use that paint brush is up to each DJ :)

SoundInMotionDJ

03-26-2008, 04:11 PM

I think it would be great to be able to promote, regardless of who your DJs are, that slow means X and fast means Y.

Then promote those definitions, and inform your DJs of your tempo requirements when you hire them.

Stan, that's great and I really appreciate your posts, but I have to respectfully disagree.

I have no issues with an open and frank discussion of this or any other topic. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you (and everyone else).

It may very well be easy for you to define and you may be on par with some other DJs. But I know for a fact that not everyone defines slow whip as 50 BPM.

ACC, in their rules, define it as 50-80 BPM. So right there we have a conflict. So, going by your definition, I would be surprised to enter a comp with the perception that all music will be 50 BPM and get one that is 80 BPM.

Perhaps you mis-understood, or perhaps I was too vague. Any range has a "slow" end and a "fast" end. I was only defining the "slow" end of the range for slow-whip as 50bpm.

"Slow" for "slow-whip" is 50bpm.
"Fast" for "slow-whip" is 80bpm. (That is "slower" than "slow" for WCS.)

edit - I have also, never been given the choice of High Energy and Low Energy.

You probably never have been given that choice. But most DJs have been told that they should strive to pick songs with "equal" "energy" for a given competition.

So, while you might not care about that definition, it would be difficult to standardize music selections without some kind of vocabulary that could describe the energy of any particular song and allow a comparison between two songs.

I like the idea of hall of Famers or something to that nature. Or a group voted on. Something isolating those DJs making a dream team of sorts.

You'd probably have better luck with one or two thoughtful people working on a set of definitions, and then some sort of "public" comment period that would take feedback from DJs and judges and competitors and event directors. Pay particular attention to the comments of Pro's of both genders who have Am's, and to instructors who are coaching novice couples.

DJing is an art. It's not just playing music. It takes a special talent to produce quality art. An artist isn't always going to produce a great piece, but it's the body of work that defines them as an artist.

"Great" art is often scary and disruptive to the "status quo." Attempting to create "awesome" is seldom compatible with creating "good" or "approachable" or "audience friendly" or "accessible." Awesome does not happen with songs that are "familiar."

In general, most ED's do not want the DJ to be "experimental" or to "push the boundaries" when it comes to picking music (for competitions or for social dancing). What most ED's want is for the DJ to cater to the wants/needs/expectations of the PAYING customers at the event. What most DJs want is to impress the big dogs.

--Stan Graves

SoundInMotionDJ

03-26-2008, 04:37 PM

So, on the cuff, that document would look something like this....

Contemporary: Songs that are current
Examples: Beer Barrel Polka by Bratz and Cheese
Row Row Row Your Boat by Dfresh

Blues: Songs about waking up in the morning
Examples: Woke Up This Morning by Dima
It's Too Early to Rise by Dima
Do you I really Have to Get Up for that Meeting by Dima

Funk: Songs that smell bad

I would oppose any move to create an "approved" (or even an "example") setlist for competitions. It would only be a matter of time (seconds?) until someone complained that some of the songs were on the list, and some of the songs were not on the list.

I have no problem with defining tempo ranges, or with genre guidelines.

Perhaps "purple" songs should come from established "purple" artists, or from "purple" billboard charts, or from the "purple" category in the store, or be labeled as "purple" in freeDB. (Feel free to sub a genre of music for "purple"...).

I get nervous when I type things like that, because I keep thinking of the UCWDC rule book... :eek:

--Stan Graves

drousar

03-26-2008, 04:58 PM

OK. I believe I was slightly misunderstood here. Not sure.

I don't want a set list! bad idea. A good song today isn't necessarily a good song tomorrow.

The idea and mere general thought was that an example of a couple songs that meet the description would help somebody to fully understand. Say they aren't well versed as to what BPM is, then they could pull up a couple of the listed examples and listen to get an understanding of what that is.

I am simply tossing out ideas. A final document may very well not include examples if the body of DJs putting it together felt it was a bad idea.

AGAIN, i'm not saying that anyone would have to adhere to anything, but a document put together by trusted professionals serving as a guide to better educate and inform the dance community could only help. EDs and such could choose whether to adopt the document into their project plan.

Thanks for the chat. :)

Eric

04-02-2008, 05:06 PM

As a DJ and competitor, I think Doug is on to something here, creating guidelines for EDs and their hired DJs.

Given the presence of AllSwingDJ and the field of DJs and dancers it represents (though it may not represent all voices) it could certainly be used as a starting point for such guidelines, perhaps to be commented on by judges and EDs. Or else a new committee could be formed that combines these factions to set and then annually review these guidelines.

I agree with Stan that a range of BPMs is the simplest and easiest standard to define "fast" and "slow" - and I agree with Doug that examples should be provided, should the person DJing competitions not know BPMs (though I should hope they do...?).

Genre, however, I think is stickier, and I believe these guidelines should be more flexible. For instance, most people define contemporary music as songs that have been released in the recent past, but "Sweet Feeling" by Cracked Ice is generally considered "blues" despite it's 2007 release date. Same for Diana Krall, a contemporary artist whose music recalls swing and jazz of a previous era. I personally define "contemporary" as music that has the rhythm and feel of contemporary music ("straighter" time) and blues as having blues structure/chord progression and a more "swung" rhythm. Then there's R&B, which encompasses everything from soul to modern R&B, some of which has a swung rhythm, some of which has a straight rhythm, some of which we'd consider "blues" and some of which we consider "contemporary" ("Love & Happiness" - where does that fall?).

The truth is that "contemporary" is a construction made up by WCS dancers/DJs - there's no such category on music sites (iTunes, allmusic, etc.). So we either need to use genres as they are defined in the music world, or else come up with our own definitions of these constructions. Personally, I'd like to see a combination of the two - for instance, using iTunes labels for R&B sub-genres but then categorizing those sub-genres into our definitions of "blues" and "contemporary" (just as a vague, off-the-cuff example).

Ultimately, though, I agree with others that it's up the ED to tell their staff what to play, and I think specifics should be set for each competitive division. I recently heard a song (one I like) played for Novice that is usually reserved for Advanced. At another event the competition DJ played only contemporary for two heats and only blues for the third. EDs should be clear about how they want their competitions to run - as a DJ and competitor, I know I hold the DJ primarily responsible, but the experience ultimately speaks to how the event was run, and that's the responsibility of the ED.

swingdj

04-07-2008, 12:34 PM

Ultimately, though, I agree with others that it's up the ED to tell their staff what to play, and I think specifics should be set for each competitive division. I recently heard a song (one I like) played for Novice that is usually reserved for Advanced. At another event the competition DJ played only contemporary for two heats and only blues for the third. EDs should be clear about how they want their competitions to run - as a DJ and competitor, I know I hold the DJ primarily responsible, but the experience ultimately speaks to how the event was run, and that's the responsibility of the ED.

Maybe Event Directors should hire Professional/Experienced national DJs and things like that would not happen....sometimes, it's not a bad idea to give a little more of an advance song to the Novice division...in my opinion, it helps the judges...easier to seperate the better dancers in that division, especially when you have close to a 100 in a novice division.

SoundInMotionDJ

04-07-2008, 03:52 PM

Maybe Event Directors should hire Professional/Experienced national DJs and things like that would not happen....

Side Question: How should the community grow more "professional/experienced national djs"?

Said another way, if EDs only hire people who are already qualified, how will someone who is not qualified gain the experience and national exposure to become qualified?

Said anther way, if a new DJ wanted to become "qualified" under your definition, how should they go about that? What should their DJ resume look like before an ED should hire them?

I'm not sure that "universal" definitions of "professional", "experienced" or "national" exist.

--Stan Graves

swingdj

04-07-2008, 09:24 PM

Side Question: How should the community grow more "professional/experienced national djs"?

Said another way, if EDs only hire people who are already qualified, how will someone who is not qualified gain the experience and national exposure to become qualified?

Said anther way, if a new DJ wanted to become "qualified" under your definition, how should they go about that? What should their DJ resume look like before an ED should hire them?

I'm not sure that "universal" definitions of "professional", "experienced" or "national" exist.

--Stan Graves

Sure they exist...How did John Festa, Beth Bellamy, Jack Smith, Kenny Wetzel gain the experience...You gonna tell me that someone has to show DJs how to do a job...why becomae a DJ then? If you don't know what your doing than don't do it....or do what I did....ask questions, sit in the DJ booth, shut up, watch and LEARN!!!!!

SoundInMotionDJ

04-07-2008, 11:16 PM

Sure they exist...How did John Festa, Beth Bellamy, Jack Smith, Kenny Wetzel gain the experience...

I'm not sure I understand.

How is the lack of a "universal" definition of "professional" and "experienced" and "national" related to the DJs you mentioned?

Among "professional" wedding DJs, there is a strong movement to include "full-time" in the definition of "professional." Do you think that could be adopted for swing DJs? Would anyone qualify? There are no other "professionals" that would allow members to drink while working. Do you think that is a good standard for "professional" behavior among DJs?

How would you measure "experience?" Years? Events? Contests? Would time playing non-swing music count? Would DJing weddings count for anything in terms of the "experience" that you consider necessary?

What is a "national" event? Do all NASDE events qualify? What about all WSDC events? Even the WSDC events that are primarily country? Are participants from two states enough to qualify?

You gonna tell me that someone has to show DJs how to do a job...

Yes. I am going to tell you that someone has to show new DJs what to do. Perhaps a discussion of ways to learn to DJ is in order.

why becomae a DJ then?

There are many reasons to become a DJ...even if you need someone to help you to understand the job and to help you gain the experience to perform at a national event.

If you don't know what your doing than don't do it....or do what I did....ask questions, sit in the DJ booth, shut up, watch and LEARN!!!!!

That is good advice for someone who thinks they want to make the investment of time and energy to become a DJ.

So, is that an example of someone showing you how to do the job? Why did you bother?

--Stan Graves

swingdj

04-08-2008, 12:55 AM

I'm not sure I understand.

How is the lack of a "universal" definition of "professional" and "experienced" and "national" related to the DJs you mentioned?

Among "professional" wedding DJs, there is a strong movement to include "full-time" in the definition of "professional." Do you think that could be adopted for swing DJs? Would anyone qualify? There are no other "professionals" that would allow members to drink while working. Do you think that is a good standard for "professional" behavior among DJs?

How would you measure "experience?" Years? Events? Contests? Would time playing non-swing music count? Would DJing weddings count for anything in terms of the "experience" that you consider necessary?

What is a "national" event? Do all NASDE events qualify? What about all WSDC events? Even the WSDC events that are primarily country? Are participants from two states enough to qualify?

Yes. I am going to tell you that someone has to show new DJs what to do. Perhaps a discussion of ways to learn to DJ is in order.

There are many reasons to become a DJ...even if you need someone to help you to understand the job and to help you gain the experience to perform at a national event.

That is good advice for someone who thinks they want to make the investment of time and energy to become a DJ.

So, is that an example of someone showing you how to do the job? Why did you bother?

--Stan Graves

So you dont think that the mentioned DJs are professionals?

What does a wedding DJ have to do with a WCS DJ...we are talking about WCS...and for the record I owned my own mobile DJ company for many years in the 80's and all of the DJ's drank at weddings...the bride and groom forced it down your throat!

Again, you bring up wedding DJ...we are talking about WCS DJ...two very different kind of DJ's....one plays for non-dancers, so it doesn't matter what kind of music is played...the other plays strictly for dancers, where choosing the music is paramount.

Dee Jaying at any swing event should count under getting experience under your belt...

No one showed me and I learned.....why does someone need to teach you how to become a DJ....maybe we should start DJ workshops at swing events!

SoundInMotionDJ

04-08-2008, 11:09 AM

So you dont think that the mentioned DJs are professionals?

I did not say that. I said that I do not think there are universal definitions of "professional" and "experienced" and "national" that every up and coming DJ and ED can rely on...Just like there are not universal definitions of "slow" or "fast" or "blues."

I did say that I'm not sure how naming those DJs applies to the lack of universal definitions.

What does a wedding DJ have to do with a WCS DJ...we are talking about WCS...

I used the examples of a wedding DJ for contrast. While there are many skills in common between DJs who do weddings or clubs or swing events, the understanding and selection of the music is quite specific for each venue.

Again, you bring up wedding DJ...we are talking about WCS DJ...two very different kind of DJ's....one plays for non-dancers, so it doesn't matter what kind of music is played...the other plays strictly for dancers, where choosing the music is paramount.

I disagree that the music for a wedding does not matter. I agree that the music at a wedding is very different than the music at a swing event.

But, your point is made, the "experience" you want for someone at a swing event can only really be gotten at a swing event.

No one showed me and I learned.....why does someone need to teach you how to become a DJ....maybe we should start DJ workshops at swing events!

When you were sitting in the booth, asking questions, and learning - was the person who was DJing showing you what they were doing? I think that someone did show you how to DJ. Someone showed me. I learned to DJ for swing events from a host of DJs, including you.

I think that DJ workshops would be an awesome addition to swing events.

--Stan Graves

swingdj

04-08-2008, 02:04 PM

I did not say that. I said that I do not think there are universal definitions of "professional" and "experienced" and "national" that every up and coming DJ and ED can rely on...Just like there are not universal definitions of "slow" or "fast" or "blues."

I did say that I'm not sure how naming those DJs applies to the lack of universal definitions.

I used the examples of a wedding DJ for contrast. While there are many skills in common between DJs who do weddings or clubs or swing events, the understanding and selection of the music is quite specific for each venue.

I disagree that the music for a wedding does not matter. I agree that the music at a wedding is very different than the music at a swing event.

But, your point is made, the "experience" you want for someone at a swing event can only really be gotten at a swing event.

When you were sitting in the booth, asking questions, and learning - was the person who was DJing showing you what they were doing? I think that someone did show you how to DJ. Someone showed me. I learned to DJ for swing events from a host of DJs, including you.

I think that DJ workshops would be an awesome addition to swing events.

--Stan Graves

The only time I was taught to DJ was when I was working in night clubs...someone taught me how to beat-mix with 12 inch vinyl....I just aged myself!!!! :-)

I was in the DJ booth and I just watched and observed...I did not have someone teach me how to pick music for comps...I just listened to what was being used and made my own mental deduction...maybe I'm just an idiot savant....in any case...I was serious about DJ workshops at swing events and it is something I am working on with EDs.

SoundInMotionDJ

04-08-2008, 02:27 PM

I was serious about DJ workshops at swing events and it is something I am working on with EDs.

I have a couple of classes that I have taught about the gear/technical/PA side of DJing. If you think that would fit into your concept of DJ workshops, let me know and I can give you more details.

--Stan Graves

chandra

04-08-2008, 03:08 PM

I for one would LOVE to see DJ workshops at events! I would deffinitly attend one.

There is some saying about reinventing the wheel, in regards to learning. If you can have someone tell you and show you their knowledge, rather than figuring it all out on your own, why not? I suppose everyone learns differently. Obviously you learn really well by observation Victor. So do I. But others have to learn from speach, etc.
I think for DJing, an apprentice type of program would work really well. Obviously, I know nothing about Djing, but I would love to learn. If there was an apprentice DJ program at an event, similar to the apprentice judging programs, that would be awesome.
Not everyone knows DJ's or has the oppurtunity to sit in the DJ booth and observe. But if we did, dont you think it would be more useful for the person DJing to explain why he/she was picking XYZ song, instead of having the n00b just guess, and figure it out by trial and error. Maybe someone has to have it told to them the first time why a particular song fits the arc. Maybe the next time they will figure it out on their own. Maybe not.

Obviously, IMHO. I know nothing about DJing, or anything like that. I just suppose I'd like to know why Djing should be different than any other form learning. You dont expect someone to learn calculus just by watching a mathematician work out a couple of questions. They wouldnt have gained anything other than a need for tylenol. But if the mathematician explains how they are working through the problem, the student is more likely to be able to replicate the problem.

Dima

04-15-2008, 05:23 PM

Speaking from experience, I am currently trying to get into the national scene, so I started contacting various EDs of local events to see if they'd let me DJ.
My motivation is to get experience under my belt.

I contacted 7 events in and around northeast, and one elsewhere. One ED said that they'd be glad to have me play (they're not local).

The rest - paraphrasing to protect the innocent (most were a very nicely written "no")
1 - I don't know yet and here's why (listing their reservations). I never heard you play. I will make my decision later on.
1 - I never heard you play.
2 - I never heard you play. I have enough DJs.
2 - I have enough DJs
1 - no response

Seems that the common theme is "I never heard you play", so how did you overcome the "I never heard you play" factor? You have to have started somewhere.... It helps to have a local event and "know" someone. What happens when you're in a scene where you don't "know" someone.

This is not a complaint btw, I understand where the event directors are coming from, this is more of a request for advice.

SoundInMotionDJ

04-15-2008, 06:13 PM

Seems that the common theme is "I never heard you play", so how did you overcome the "I never heard you play" factor? You have to have started somewhere.... It helps to have a local event and "know" someone. What happens when you're in a scene where you don't "know" someone.

This is why I asked...

Side Question: How should the community grow more "professional/experienced national djs"?

Said another way, if EDs only hire people who are already qualified, how will someone who is not qualified gain the experience and national exposure to become qualified?

Said anther way, if a new DJ wanted to become "qualified" under your definition, how should they go about that? What should their DJ resume look like before an ED should hire them?

Unfortunately, it does not appear that you got an answer. Victor's "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps," while inspirational, does not seem to provide a practical guide for the beginning DJ.

--Stan Graves

whipdancer

04-22-2008, 11:49 PM

Arjay

04-27-2008, 01:57 PM

I think there is another tangent we can analyze this topic rather than just thinking it's all about what the dj plays.

This reminds me of a conversation I was having with Kevin St. Laurent. Yes a Lindy Pro. He was talking about how a particular couple he knew of was teaching to slow the dance down. Bring the normal standard of tempo down.

Could it be, from the standpoint of developing the community, that Professional instructors also influence by teaching more classes at slower tempos, performing routines at slower tempos, and practicing with students to slower tempos.

Back to my example. Especially for Lindy Hop, to have basics taught to beginners at a slower tempo is absolutely fine but to keep the standard of speed up as opposed to down.

It seems that we have the ability to stepladder what we associate to as being "slow" "medium" "fast" but not just from what the DJs play in competition or social dancing.

I'm all for all speeds. I've had multiple routines at faster bpms... 143...160....
but I'm also for slower speeds.... 74...82..
(of course if you consider those tempos fast and/or slow)

I don't think standardization is totally necessary...just a clear understanding and awareness of the expectations and capabilities of the dancers/ED/and pros.

Want it faster? don't baby the community, play them that faster tempo song. or stepladder your fast song with a faster song...almost getting the community accustomed to that new standard.
Want it slower? duh... then do so....

Obviously as a professional, I should have the control and the power and composure to dance at all these tempos. So as long as I like the song...play it!!!!

I teach my students in such a way that understand control in balance and relationship to speed. This direct correlation between control and speed is what I define as swiftness. I've surprised many students that they are capable of dancing to faster tempos and they learn to not fear the faster songs as much.
Imagine as another example, what if more novice and intermediate dancers feared faster tempo songs... more and more of them sit on the side lines and don't dance. In turn, the DJ's job is to keep them on the floor. In turn, slower music, more positive response. Side note, is the DJ willing to allow the dance to return to the red zone of more people being discouraged to dance because they fear the faster song? not likely, please the crowd....

eh...my 2 cents!

BJW

04-29-2008, 03:28 PM

I like the idea of a general concensus on BPM; although I think we would find that we were already on the same page (for the most part anyway). even if we can agree on a mid-range that would define the rest for us.

I've been teaching and running a local dance venue for about 2 years. I mention the teaching part because the speed and obvious rythm of the songs I choose makes a difference whith a student having a hard time finding a "1" or even a down beat.

Anyway, I feel that the mid range could reside somwhere in the neighborhood of 90 BPM through 120 BPM. Anything over that and a dancer has to be pretty confident in their leading/ following abilities to dance comfortably.

When teaching I start out around the mid-70's and use songs with a heavy down beat. It just makes it easier so students can focus on the footwork and connection instead of spending all their energy trying to "hear" the rythm.

DJ workshops?
I would love to attend. I would love to hear about equiptment, programs, strategies, problem solving, etc.
Very interested... yeah, let's do that.:shades:

whipdancer

04-30-2008, 08:28 PM

For me personally, I tend to break the speeds out into various levels.

Above 120 is fast, below 80 is slow, social is around 100. Fast social is up to about 112, slow social is down to around 85. Yes, that really is how I describe it. I tend to call social the prevailing social speed (which last time I actually measured averaged around 96 for a weekend of social dancing) - which I will also call moderate or mid.

Genres are relatively easy (other than arguing over what makes hip-hop vs current r&b vs rap); Blues, Soul, Rock, Rock-n-Roll, Alternative, Old R&B, Hip-Hop, Rap, New R&B, Swing, Jazz, Big Band - for dancing I find that most of the time songs can fit into Blues, Soul, Rock, R&B/Hip-Hop, Old R&B, Swing;

There are far more differentiations that can be made in the genres. For example, blues will encompass electric, delta, contemporary, jump, swing, and more.