Earning your way: WSDC Points & Competitions

[Burger]

I provide registration and scoring for many WCS events and always run into a common occurrence. Many competitors constantly try to dance up in a higher division than that reflected in their WSDC profile. I am a bit confused by this. Here’s how I see it...

For example, if you compete in Intermediate and feel that you are an Advanced dancer, why do you want to try and skip Intermediate without meeting the guidelines to enter the next division. If you are truly an Advanced dancer, then it should be no problem to earn your points in Intermediate and move up following the WSDC guidelines. If you are not ready for Advanced you may not do very well, so why not meet the guidelines in Intermediate and silence anyone who might doubt your competition level when you do move up. Is it really fair to put yourself up in a division that everyone else has earned their way? Is it fair to the qualified competitor who draws you in a J&J if you are not ready to compete at that level?

Many competitors will say, “Well, this is such a small event that I should be dancing in Advanced.” Here’s the problem, if you final or place in that small Advanced division you will receive Advanced points, making you "Advanced". Your next event is a huge national event and you suddenly realize that you are not Advanced and you now want to dance in the appropriate division, Intermediate. Does this make sense? Now you have to try and petition to dance down a division. You can’t be Advanced at one event and Intermediate at another. If you earn your way through each division you will be respected, never questioned, and get the experience needed to be successful. It seems very straight forward to me.

I am curious why competitors want to move up so quick. Personally, I would want to prove, without a doubt, that I am ready and qualified for the next division.

Discuss...

[SoundInMotionDJ]

Points (mostly) make sense, if you have spent your entire competitive career entering contests that offer points.

I spent 10 years competing, and I have one Novice point. That's it. Points did not exist when I was actively competing. By the time points did exist, I was focused on routines and not on J&J.

Based on wins in routine divisions, I am not eligible to dance Newcomer, Novice, or Rising Star in a routine or Strictly division at any contest that I've checked in recent years. I have taught WCS classes & workshops for years.

BUT...I "must" dance in the Novice J&J!

I have no desire to dance in Novice. I also have no desire to throw myself on the mercy of a head judge who might not know me. So, until there is a painless way to skip over divisions, there is darn little to entice me to dance J&J.

As for the argument "...well, if you're that good, then you'll win easily..." Except that higher level divisions typically have much better partners. It's possible that many intermediate dancers would not even place if given a newcomer partner. Watch "You Mama Can't Dance" for an example.

--Stan Graves

[coastswing]

It should be enforced at registration across the board...remove the 'petitioning up'...why should you be able to ask the head judge about moving up when a person actually competing in the division has to convince 5-6+ judges in that moment that they deserved 1st and are ready to move on?

I agree with Burger, if you truly belong in a certain division you will get there. If you're like me and do maybe only 2 or 3 events a year, it might take a little longer, but it will happen.

I will even hang myself by saying that you should not only have a certain amount of points to move on, but a certain number of 1st place wins to move.....that puts me in Novice to make up for my own lack of what I just said.

[vegas4x4]

I've found that novice girls and guys (but especially girls) almost always want to dance up as soon as possible due to the fact that the skill range in novice is huge - some people just started dancing a month ago and some people started dancing years ago and just haven't competed. The reality is that no matter how great of a dancer you are individually, if you have a good/bad partner, it can definitely help or hurt your placement. People want to dance up so they can draw better partners; especially if you only attend a couple events a year, you want to do well.

Most of the novice dancers (including myself) moved out of novice after they got their 20 points regardless if they had a 1st place.

On the flip side, all of the intermediate guys I know and a few girls too have chosen to stay in intermediate until they have their 25 points AND a 1st place.

It's a personal preference but I tend to find the people who want to dance up believe that their partners are their limiting factor rather than themselves.

I agree that it's shooting yourself in the foot to dance up at a smaller event since if you do well you will be stuck dancing in the higher level at bigger more competitive events. You can't compare dancing in advanced at a small midwestern event vs dancing in advanced at 4th of July or Boogie by the Bay.

The one thing I have seen at events that would frustrate me is that some events are requiring that you have your 1st place before moving up. I realize it is the event directors discretion how they choose to manage their competitors, but it would be nice if they just stuck to the WSDC guidelines.

[coastswing]

J&J is supposed to be judging your partnering skills which is why it is a contest with random partners.

The one thing that always impressed me with the pros is their ability to take anyone they dance with and make them shine. I think that's a true skill to achieve in order to be a master at J&J. If you have that, you will be able to move along in the divisions.

And as for those that have been competing for years even before the points system, I don't think the idea is to make this retro-active. If you are in a division, you stay there until you have earned the points needed based on the current guidelines. I too am guilty of moving through the ranks faster than I should if it was based on today's guidelines. But then again, if I really belong in Advanced, I would've made it happen or I would be in the division that I belong in.

[Kelly]

I too have come in contact with this while working registration at events. Everytime that this happens I simply ask the competitor "why would you want to dance up a division when you don't have enough points??" Then its usually followed by "if you just dance in your division you will be out soon enough and will not have to petition to dance up anymore" So then the competitor then argues with me that they are not that level and have placed in a strictly or something in a higher division......ok....but that doesn't put you in a higher division in JnJ and that doesn't "make" you a better dancer??!!

So here's my reasoning behind this situation....what makes this person special that he/she does not need to complete the points like everyone else??

I have been competing for several years...I started in Intermediate (back when you chose where to start) and it took about 3-4 years to get out. I would NOT move out of my division until I had the points and a first place win at a large national event. This was not only for my own self satisfaction that I completed my division, but also recomendations from's pro's and judges.

Like Burger said, Its not fair the Leaders and Followers in the higher division to have dancers who may not be at that level in thier division. I've come in contact with this MANY times, and I know... we all want to dance in higher divisions...but I think people have their own perception of their dance level that may not actually be reality.

The only justification to this not so standardized system is that those who do "dance up" who are not ready will find themselves unsuccessful and stuck. And honestly each division is a growing experience....dancing with strong partners and weak partners is what makes you a better social dancer.

[jmatthew]

There are great things about the point system and some, er, not so great things.

Great things: Gives people an idea of their skill level. Let's people compete with people in their skill/experience range, so we have more "winners." Really encourages people at all level to keep increasing their skill level to work their way up. Is about as fair as we can make it.

Contrast it with Lindy Hop where you either a) Guess your skill level, which results in some pretty crazy skill levels within the same or b) everything is "open" which is even crazier.

Less-than-great things: There's a huge skill range in novice, and a huge number of competitors, so trying to get out of novice, particularly for follows can be insane. I know novice follows competing in open/advanced strictly and winning, but not even finalling in novice because either a) they pull very weak partners or b) the judges never even see them in the mass of bodies.

I can't say I particularly understand people who just have to be advanced/all star yesterday, I agree that you should try to earn your way up and there's no real hurry (I'd rather win intermediate than lose advanced personally...), but I do understand the frustration of being stuck in novice ****.

[swingdj]

GREAT THREAD...I must also agree with Burger...Here is my problem with that...In Stan's case, who has been dancing for a long time (way before points were established) I see NO PROBLEM with petioning up...however, I also feel that the event director and head judge need to be aware of this problem and a decision needs to be made right then and there. I'm pretty sure that Advanced dancers don't want to draw a Novice or Intermediate lead/follow when that person has not EARNED their way to that division. It's not fair to the dancer that has earned his/her points to be dancing in Advanced/All-Star, etc.

The point system was put there for a reason....the registration desk/event director/head judge really need to police it....

[coastswing]

There's also a difference between competitive dancing and non-competitive dancing. I remember my first time competing was in Dallas Dance in 199_. God bless my partner. We warmed up and were on fire...the contest started, I screwed up 3 left side passes, 2 sugar pushes and refused to even try the whip at that point (I think I even stopped dancing for a brief moment in a state of shock). After the competition, we danced again....on fire....It didn't make me less of a dancer, but it sure made me realize that competition dancing is a different matter..... I eventually improved at competitions and my advancing through the divisions came along as I improved.

I'm a Pro in my own twisted world, but more than happy to be dancing in Advanced for as long as it takes for my actual dancing to catch up to my fantasies.

[swingdj]

This brings up another point.....it's interesting to me how many dancers want to dance up...because they feel they are better than where they are dancing at the moment. But then when they dance in there respective division and a song that really "swings" is played, they have no clue what to do and look like they belong in newcomer let alone novice....so in my mind, if you can't dance to songs that "swing", have breaks, rolling counts, etc., etc., etc....how can you say that you should be dancing up....cause once you get to Advanced and higher....the playing field changes....I just moved up to All-Star and it is waaaaaay different than Advanced and the music is harder....you don't just get the "thunka thunka" music that any chipmunk can dance to.....move up the ladder the way the system was designed....cause once you get to All-Star....there is no where else to go unless all the Pro's retire!!!!!

[christina]

Victor's post reminded me of a conversation I had back in my early days of competing ...

The conversation centered around some novice dancers discussing how they all would be better off in intermediate where they'd have better partners. And these novice dancers all thought they were so much better and would shine more in intermediate.

Yes, I was one of those ego driven novice dancers. And I'm chagrined when I look back on video footage of me from that time - There was a reason I couldn't get out of Newcomer! Oh, I sucked. That should maybe be in capital letters. I SUCKED. And no amount of dancing with higher level competitors was going to change the fact that my dancing wasn't up to par.

Having the feeling of a good dance with a better dancer does not make you a better dancer. If you lack the ability to dance well with the people in your division - regardless of their skill - you are not ready to move up. If you can dance with anyone in your division and still dance well then you are ready.

[bethany]

I know this thread is about wanting to petition up, and it seems the majority of people are in agreement that we should stick with the WSDC guidelines and, as Victor said, make it stick for all competitors that weekend.

I'm curious what people's thoughts are on sandbagging: people petitioning down because they don't want to move up. They may have 40 intermediate points and a couple of first places, but they're still petitioning down because they feel that is where they truly belong and they are afraid of the next level up. Should this be allowed as well?

[Kelly]

The conversation centered around some novice dancers discussing how they all would be better off in intermediate where they'd have better partners. And these novice dancers all thought they were so much better and would shine more in intermediate.

Good point and I think alot these followers are forgetting the fact that you are judged as an individual in the preliminary round. Even though their may be "better leaders" in intermediate it does not mean that the followers skills become intermediate.

[CrazyKate]

The best & worst part about J&Js are that they're random; you don't have to find a partner ahead of time like you do for strictly, but you have no clue who you're going to partner with.

Slot machines are random - it takes a lot of luck to win. Same with J&Js.

Play by the rules like you're supposed to & work your way up the divisions.

If you don't like the rules - don't play.

Note: I'm *very* glad the WSDC restructured their points system to reward more for huge events & less for wicked tiny events.

[christina]

Side note and self plugging.

Related to this topic is an article Nick Williams (Lindy Choreographer on SYTYCD) wrote in regards to having just lost a competition. He allowed SDM to publish it (read full article here (http://www.swing-dancer.com/page.php?103)).

I'm just going to quote one bit, and I think it applies to this concept of dancing up.

I see people competing for the wrong reasons. I think it has to do with where your focus is. If your focus is on everybody else, then that's not usually a healthy outlook. Your focus should be on yourself and your own dancing. In a contest, you can't control the judges and you can't control the other dancers. You can only control yourself.

I think one of the reasons for wanting to dance up is because of focus on other people and how well we do compared to them. Competition becomes personal as we take in the compliments of our friends, encouragement from teachers, or the rivalry with someone else. We think about our place in the local community vs. in a competition. How winning makes us feel compared to losing.

But a competition isn't personal. Or at least shouldn't be. It's a conglomeration of factors (i.e. who the judges are, if we're having an "On" day, who we draw, etc.). It's not a reflextion of who we are as a person, or even of our own dancing. However, we're all human so our experience is translated on a personal level.

As Nick said, we control ourselves. We do have the ability to choose how we will let ourselves be affected - if our egos will grow or if we humble ourselves to learn more.

[WestieTash]

I know this thread is about wanting to petition up, and it seems the majority of people are in agreement that we should stick with the WSDC guidelines and, as Victor said, make it stick for all competitors that weekend.

I'm curious what people's thoughts are on sandbagging: people petitioning down because they don't want to move up. They may have 40 intermediate points and a couple of first places, but they're still petitioning down because they feel that is where they truly belong and they are afraid of the next level up. Should this be allowed as well?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

Silly me, I decided to enter a big, National event for my first comp. I remember lining up for J&J prelims and seeing people who have more dance experience in their pinkies than I had in my entire body. I was immediately psyched out.

Personally, I like that some regions have "Newcomer." We don't have that level around here, and I would have had a much smoother entry into the competitive world had I started there.

As several posters have pointed out, Novice can be a bit of a trainwreck because of the wide ranging skillset. That's a given. But why throw another wrench into the equation?

On a sidenote, I know a few sandbaggers, and I'm pleased to report it hasn't always worked to their advantage.

[bethany]

Good point and I think alot these followers are forgetting the fact that you are judged as an individual in the preliminary round. Even though their may be "better leaders" in intermediate it does not mean that the followers skills become intermediate.

SO true! At the beginning of each new division, you have a new element that's being judged, and if you're not up to par with that new element (or the judges don't see you being up to par with that new element), you're not going to be the "rockstar" you were in the lower level. Yes, some people have a run of luck and just happen to draw the right partners at the right times, but that doesn't mean they have everything they need for the next division. It's a lifelong learning hobby we've all chosen, not an "I'm at the top of the world" hobby.

[Purkey]

...too many dancers get too focused on "points" - I think that is why they petition to go up...they think they'll get "better" leaders etc by doing so. And if they get better leaders, they'll get better placements and if they get better placements they'll get more "points" and if they get more "points" they'll be better dancers ... etc. etc. That might be a reason some try to petition up. I often hear the lament...oh I got a bad leader or oh my follow couldn't even follow and didn't even belong in my division. I say, enjoy the dance! Dance your best no matter who your partner is. Compete because you want to. It's all about the journey - enjoy it.:rolleyes:

[vegas4x4]

There's also a difference between competitive dancing and non-competitive dancing.

Isn't that the truth! I hate when I have solid social dances and then I pull the same person in a competition and one or both of us (ok, it's usually me!) is making careless mistakes from being nervous.

Not that there is anything wrong with that, that's part of the competition too, gotta get used to being on stage.

I feel sorry in advance for whoever I dance with in my first spotlight some day!

[vegas4x4]

But then when they dance in there respective division and a song that really "swings" is played, they have no clue what to do and look like they belong in newcomer let alone novice....I just moved up to All-Star and it is waaaaaay different than Advanced and the music is harder....

Out here on the west coast All-Star and Champions usually dance spotlight and get their choice of music in finals and it's usually blues, contemporary, and possibly some variations of blues (fast blues, r&b, etc.). Out of the last six events I've been to, if the champs are given the choice, at least 60% are dancing to contemporary music which usually doesn't swing.

I noticed the biggest events like Boogie offer basically only blues music that swings as the JnJ choices. They still offered up contemporary music on the strictly side of things.

I'd like to see champion competitors draw their music category from a hat. It's fun to see champions dance outside their "choice" genre. Do any events do that?

[swingdj]

Out here on the west coast All-Star and Champions usually dance spotlight and get their choice of music in finals and it's usually blues, contemporary, and possibly some variations of blues (fast blues, r&b, etc.). Out of the last six events I've been to, if the champs are given the choice, at least 60% are dancing to contemporary music which usually doesn't swing.

I noticed the biggest events like Boogie offer basically only blues music that swings as the JnJ choices. They still offered up contemporary music on the strictly side of things.

I'd like to see champion competitors draw their music category from a hat. It's fun to see champions dance outside their "choice" genre. Do any events do that?

Most of the time (including the west coast) the DJ decides what music to give the All-Stars and Champions in the spotlight. The only event that actually has the Pros drawing from a hat, is Dallas DANCE.

[SoundInMotionDJ]

Most of the time (including the west coast) the DJ decides what music to give the All-Stars and Champions in the spotlight. The only event that actually has the Pros drawing from a hat, is Dallas DANCE.

Drawing from a hat provides only the illusion of choice. How is that different from the random order that the DJ would have for the songs to begin with?

--Stan Graves

[swingdj]

Drawing from a hat provides only the illusion of choice. How is that different from the random order that the DJ would have for the songs to begin with?

--Stan Graves

It doesn't I was just answering a question...of which event draws from a hat...

[SHORTYJOY]

My personal opinion is that the point system is fail able.

Namely because it would be impossible for judges (watching large numbers of dancers in each heat) to really give enough attention to each individual dancer on the floor. To some degree- flash will always be rewarded over solid technique in prelims simply because the attention catching dancers get seen. These dancers often make it to finals, but do not win. They collect their points one at a time.

Meanwhile, there are better dancers competing that do not make finals- because they were beat by someone with poor connection and technique in pre-lims.

My $.02

[Kelly]

My personal opinion is that the point system is fail able.

Namely because it would be impossible for judges (watching large numbers of dancers in each heat) to really give enough attention to each individual dancer on the floor. To some degree- flash will always be rewarded over solid technique in prelims simply because the attention catching dancers get seen. These dancers often make it to finals, but do not win. They collect their points one at a time.

Meanwhile, there are better dancers competing that do not make finals- because they were beat by someone with poor connection and technique in pre-lims.

My $.02

Very true....and I think that this situation is more true among the newcomer/novice divisions where there may be 150-200+ dancers in a prelim. Unfortunetely this is the case....as a follower you must do what it takes to stand out among all those people in a prelim. You don't have to sacrafice technique to do that. But there are in many cases dancers with far less technique in these division finaling and placing that in my personal opinion lack the basic foundation of this dance. It is also to my understanding and experience that in the novice division the judges are looking for clean solid basics.....done well! So my question is why are they rewarding 'flash' in novice??

Getting back to the subject of the forum...I think that the above is a result of new dancers wanting to jump to a higher level because they want to put on a show. And those new dancers on the fast track who have jumped from Newcomer to Advanced in a years time will find themselves lacking the clear understanding and experience of this dance....and eventually will hit a wall.

But I do agree that it seems impossible for judges to give each dancer the adequate time to be judged...I think that smaller heats would solve this. But this would mean the comps running even later.......oy.....:tonguesmilie:

[KelKel]

This has been a heated discussion amongst my girlfriends and I ever since we began competing. We are new to WCS and are coming from a newcomer standpoint and it's been difficult to really understand what it takes to get to Novice and the points system and how to get a win. Yes I agree it takes skill but in these New/Nov divisions it also, as someone else said, takes a lot of luck. You need both.

My struggle has been understanding when it's ok to leave Newcomer. Many of the ppl we started with have moved on to Novice some without wins. After reading several event rules all slightly different in their rules we realized that most conventions require you either make it to finals or have been dancing at least one year. Then there are some comps that don't even have newcomer as an option so people we compete with go to these comps get a Novice point and never look back :) I've found it difficult understanding what I should do. I read the rules closely for my next event and I am well within the rules to move up to Novice. Why do I want to move up? Because in Newcomer I can go from dancing with someone who is skilled and just never competed and so has no points to someone who just started that day (yes this has happened to me before). It is much more difficult for females to move up in Newcomer and in the beginning it's not so bad because you don't know any better and you cann't tell a good lead from a less skilled lead but once you start to really understand the dance it becomes EXTREMELY difficult and a lot less enjoyable to languish in Newcomer longer than necessary.

What are ppl's thought on when someone should move up out of Newcomer. I know some ppl who dance Newcomer once and move on and others who have 8 points in Newcomer and still haven't moved to Novice. Is it personal preference? Should we just follow the rules of an organizer? Should you place first or just make finals? I never want to be out of line but as a newbie I'm often unsure of where that line is.

[coastswing]

If you need a better partner to do well, perhaps it's you that aren't the better partner.

What about all those people that are making finals and placing. Yes in a pool of 100+ dancers, it's tough to get everyone in finals that danced well enough to be there...but for those that did, they deserve where they are. If you don't make finals or are 'stuck' in a division, enjoy it and use it as a tool to motivate you to do better, not use it as a negative to feel that you are 'stuck' somewhere. Of those that do advance, they did it and looking in the higher divisions, those people deserve it. So I don't think it's as tough as people think if they dance well.

I'd also be curious to find out for those that feel they should be dancing in a different division, how long have you been in your division? When I hear someone say they are 'stuck' somewhere I want to ask them, how long do you consider being stuck? Is 4 years too long? What is the basis for how long you feel is too long?

[Kelly]

...........
What are ppl's thought on when someone should move up out of Newcomer. I know some ppl who dance Newcomer once and move on and others who have 8 points in Newcomer and still haven't moved to Novice. Is it personal preference? Should we just follow the rules of an organizer? Should you place first or just make finals? I never want to be out of line but as a newbie I'm often unsure of where that line is.

According to the WSDC the "Newcomer" division points are recorded but not tracked. This means that there are no guidelines as to when to move out of Newcomer, and its an optional division at a competition. Once you get to Novice they set guidelines and your points are tracked to work your way to Intermediate. Some cases dancers who "place" in newcomer will then move on to Novice. BUT it to my understaning that the general guideline is that you should have at least 5 points in Newcomer before moving on to Novice.

[SoundInMotionDJ]

My personal opinion is that the point system is fail able.

Any system will have failings. Because of that, I much prefer systems that are easy to understand - even if the fundamental flaws are also easy to understand. I don't like overly complicated systems that hide the flaws.

I think that the desire to stick with "guidelines" rather than "hard rules" has outlived it's usefulness - but that's could just be me.

I think the biggest challenge facing points today is the attempt to quantify the "quality" of your points. If you have enough points to qualify for one division or another, but they are from "small" events - some events are trying to round those points down. This is a reaction to dancers who "bought points" by traveling to a lot of little events to rack up points.

The Tier's are an OK way to take into account the size of a division and award more points for winning at bigger events. I'm not convinced that the number of entrants directly relates to the quality of the dancers...but most other reasonable methods would have similar drawbacks.

Namely because it would be impossible for judges (watching large numbers of dancers in each heat) to really give enough attention to each individual dancer on the floor.

That would be a problem with or without points. How can you really know that the "best" dancer won in a field of 100+? There is a certain amount of luck of the draw and luck of when the judges happen to be looking at you.

Flash is an important aspect to the dance. Syncopation and embellishment and show are important elements of any dance. As much as we might not like to admit it - in general the flashier dancers are also the better dancers.

--Stan Graves

[CALI DOLL]

This has been a heated discussion amongst my girlfriends and I ever since we began competing. We are new to WCS and are coming from a newcomer standpoint and it's been difficult to really understand what it takes to get to Novice and the points system and how to get a win. Yes I agree it takes skill but in these New/Nov divisions it also, as someone else said, takes a lot of luck. You need both.

My struggle has been understanding when it's ok to leave Newcomer. Many of the ppl we started with have moved on to Novice some without wins. After reading several event rules all slightly different in their rules we realized that most conventions require you either make it to finals or have been dancing at least one year. Then there are some comps that don't even have newcomer as an option so people we compete with go to these comps get a Novice point and never look back :) I've found it difficult understanding what I should do. I read the rules closely for my next event and I am well within the rules to move up to Novice. Why do I want to move up? Because in Newcomer I can go from dancing with someone who is skilled and just never competed and so has no points to someone who just started that day (yes this has happened to me before). It is much more difficult for females to move up in Newcomer and in the beginning it's not so bad because you don't know any better and you cann't tell a good lead from a less skilled lead but once you start to really understand the dance it becomes EXTREMELY difficult and a lot less enjoyable to languish in Newcomer longer than necessary.

What are ppl's thought on when someone should move up out of Newcomer. I know some ppl who dance Newcomer once and move on and others who have 8 points in Newcomer and still haven't moved to Novice. Is it personal preference? Should we just follow the rules of an organizer? Should you place first or just make finals? I never want to be out of line but as a newbie I'm often unsure of where that line is.


Of course, you know I'm in the same boat as you. Because the rules vary from event to event, I'm going to go by the rules of whichever event I'm attending. I have gone back and forth with the Newcomer/Novice issue. I understand Newcomer to be for people new to competing. IMO (and it is just my opinion), I think staying in Newcomer is a personal choice. I know of only 1 event that requires 5 Newcomer points to move to Novice. The others I've researched say that Newcomer is for folks new to competing and/or dancing less than a year. I'm neither.

So, unless required by the respective event director, I'm going on to Novice.

[KelKel]

According to the WSDC the "Newcomer" division points are recorded but not tracked. This means that there are no guidelines as to when to move out of Newcomer, and its an optional division at a competition. Once you get to Novice they set guidelines and your points are tracked to work your way to Intermediate. Some cases dancers who "place" in newcomer will then move on to Novice. BUT it to my understaning that the general guideline is that you should have at least 5 points in Newcomer before moving on to Novice.

I've heard this as well. In fact I thought I needed 5 points to move up and intended on doing so but then many of my co-competitors were moving up and asking me why I was staying in Newcomer. I then started going to the rules of conventions that I attend. According to Madjams rules you just need to have made finals at an event to move to Novice. According to I think it was Swing Fling you needed to be dancing a year. This is where I am confused. I am not trying to cheat my time in Newcomer but the rules vary. Summer Hummer clearly states you need 5 points so the rules vary for Newcomers which makes it difficult for a Newcomer to know what to do. I don't think that my co-competitors were out of line for moving up to Novice cause they had all made finals and many had placed and after reading the different rules I saw why they were shocked I'd stayed in Newcomer. If I follow the rules of my next convention I should be dancing Novice even though I have not placed.

I agree that you don't need a good partner to dance well. I thought for sure I would not make finals due to one of my partners in the Prelims for Newcomer but it was defintely a learning experience for me. One of my teachers was watching me closely and knew that I thought it was hopeless after getting a very difficult lead. She spoke with me later and told me that I had done everything I was suppose to do inspite of my lead and for that I should not worry and my chances were very good but in Finals you are not being judged alone are you? It is how well you and your lead dance together correct? and no matter how well you may do if your lead is still not on point I wouldn't see you as a couple placing right? I'm new I may be wrong *shrugs* I know I did not do everything I needed to do to place at my last comp but according to the rules of my next comp I am well within the boundaries to move up to Novice. *shrugs* I think this is a little different than the other catogories that are more clearly defined. I think with Newcomer there is a gray area.

[SoundInMotionDJ]

II then started going to the rules of conventions that I attend. According to Madjams rules you just need to have made finals at an event to move to Novice. According to I think it was Swing Fling you needed to be dancing a year. This is where I am confused.

This is why I think the "guidelines" have reached the limit of their usefulness, and "hard rules" need to be written to take their place.

--Stan Graves

[swingdj]

Here is a little excerpt taken from an interview with Mario Robau on Swing Dancer Magazine's web site...

The hot topic everywhere is competitions, mainly the point system -there's a lot of people who have issues with the point system - many dancers moving up too fast and people complaining. Would you mind discussing your views on this?
I don't want to speak ill of the point system, I don't want to speak ill of any system because at least it's an attempt - you know what I mean? And any attempt is better than no attempt.

Do I agree entirely with the point system? No.

I don't believe that 17 points makes you a baby dancer and 18 points makes you an All-Star. I don't like defining my dancing, or anybodies dancing, on how many points they got through a council or organization or association. I don't believe in that, I think that what makes you a good dancer is the fact that you dance well with your partner to the music.

And it's not convention based or competition based. I think that there's to much, entirely too much emphasis being placed on how many points you have - and that's just a simple question of going to dance events. If you want to make it to All-Stars, what you need to do is take out a second mortgage on your house and go to every convention. You'll get one point at every convention, you'll have forty points, you'll be an All-Star, and there you go.

So what do you think defines a dancer? How should a dancer know that he's good enough to move up or not?
It's not about moving up or down. I don't understand the predicament the dancers are in these days because when I started it was guts and go. I mean, if you had the guts, you got in it. And baby dancers that had been dancing three weeks competed against professionals. That's no longer the case. Now there are divisions for people born on Tuesday. I think that what should make you move up is the fact that you're comfortable dancing at those higher levels and also the people that you're dancing with should be comfortable dancing with you.

Final question: In a couple of sentences, what would you tell a class of dancers that were motivated to get better and better and better?
Forget competition would be the first thing I tell them. What defines a good dance is you having fun and your partner having fun and neither of you getting hurt. I would think back to why you started in the first place - you didn't start this to make a dance career, you started this to have fun. So have fun. If you want to compete, play by the rules of the competition: don't bend them, don't break them.

[Kelly]

I've heard this as well. In fact I thought I needed 5 points to move up and intended on doing so but then many of my co-competitors were moving up and asking me why I was staying in Newcomer. I then started going to the rules of conventions that I attend. According to Madjams rules you just need to have made finals at an event to move to Novice. According to I think it was Swing Fling you needed to be dancing a year. This is where I am confused. I am not trying to cheat my time in Newcomer but the rules vary. Summer Hummer clearly states you need 5 points so the rules vary for Newcomers which makes it difficult for a Newcomer to know what to do. I don't think that my co-competitors were out of line for moving up to Novice cause they had all made finals and many had placed and after reading the different rules I saw why they were shocked I'd stayed in Newcomer. If I follow the rules of my next convention I should be dancing Novice even though I have not placed.

This is true that every event can set whatever criteria they want as far as elgibility is concerned for division. Unfortunetely Newcomer is a gray area as its not always offered. But In my opinion following the convention rules is the best thing and basically the only thing you can do right now. Its your choice whether you want to dance in novice if newcomer is not offered. Its always recommended that you have the 5pts in newcomer before competing in a higher division. However if you do decide to dance novice at the next convention and make finals or place than you can no longer dance in newcomer. So its really a personal choice you need to make.

I agree that you don't need a good partner to dance well. I thought for sure I would not make finals due to one of my partners in the Prelims for Newcomer but it was defintely a learning experience for me. One of my teachers was watching me closely and knew that I thought it was hopeless after getting a very difficult lead. She spoke with me later and told me that I had done everything I was suppose to do inspite of my lead and for that I should not worry and my chances were very good but in Finals you are not being judged alone are you? It is how well you and your lead dance together correct? and no matter how well you may do if your lead is still not on point I wouldn't see you as a couple placing right? I'm new I may be wrong *shrugs* I know I did not do everything I needed to do to place at my last comp but according to the rules of my next comp I am well within the boundaries to move up to Novice. *shrugs* I think this is a little different than the other catogories that are more clearly defined. I think with Newcomer there is a gray area.

Your correct...In JnJ finals you are judged as a couple, so this is where luck really has an effect. Its the "luck of the draw"!! And your right again...this where you want to pay attention to your partner and dance as a team. If you happen to draw someone that you think you didn't have a great dance with doesn't necessarily mean you will not place. The judging panel has a big influence as well, and as you compete more you will begin to notice this.

[drousar]

I'm just going to chime in with a couple thoughts and comments.

Mario's Interview posted above - GREAT!

The system developed by the council was a direct reaction the ol' so dreadful word "sandbagger". It was an attempt to keep dancers from dancing down or in a division too long, not prevent them from challenging themselves in higer divivsions. Read the guidelines carefully, there is a big differece between the words "Should" and "Must".

Being classified by the points reflects your competition experience and luck! Not your level or ability! I have had my fare share of luck, both in Novice and even recently at pro and all-star.

Events need to decide wether they want to lable their diivisions as "Newcomer" (new to competitions) or "New Dancer" new to the dance. Not saying "new Dancer" is a good name for a division. But they have to be clear what their rules are. Points? or dance level?

There is no harm in someone dancing up! Well, unless it's a straight to finals situation. Then I can see how possibly there would be an issue. But if there is a prelims everyone gets three partners and the ones that can't hang get eliminated. That said, a major part of a J&J is to show your partnering skills. As a higher level dancer, you should be able to adjust your dance and put a good dance on the floor with any level. Does that mean you can lead your triple black diamond back flip dismount...no, but I have never seen one of those win a comp. Watch some of the Best Robert Royston wins. No crazy patterns, just great musicality.

If you compete for the right reasons, getting a "lower level partner" in a straight to finals situation shouldn't bother you. Accept it. Enjoy your partner, enjoy the music, smile and have a great time. Only you can control that aspect of your competition. I have been to a lot of competitions and I can honestly say, I think I have seen more train wrecks of two "higher level" dancers than I have seen where you would classify them as off-balance.

It's all a gamble. It's luck of the draw. If you don't like the odds, don't play.

You will hopefully spend many more hours on the social floor then the competitve floor at these events. If you're not, why are you spending all that money for a few minutes dancing. Are you attending events for the right reason? It should be more about your friends, the music and the dance and less about the comps.

What really, really bothers me is when I hear dancers using their progression in J&J as a way to determine if they are becoming better dancers. UGH!!!! If I buy enough lottery tickets I will eventually win. That doesn't mean I am becoming a better Gambler!

Dancers dancing up? Embrace the challenge and have fun!

[KelKel]

Wow this thread has been really helpful. I'm enjoying reading all the responses especially the interview posted above. This is a conversation I've been having with friends ever since I made the decision to compete and since my friends and I are all beginners we'd sort of been talking in circles :) but we came to some of the same conclusions that have been posted here so it's good to know we were headed in the right direction.

[Burger]

The system developed by the council was a direct reaction the ol' so dreadful word "sandbagger". It was an attempt to keep dancers from dancing down or in a division too long, not prevent them from challenging themselves in higer divivsions. Read the guidelines carefully, there is a big differece between the words "Should" and "Must".


I have to disagree. I have read the guidelines carefully and you're right, there is a big difference between "Should" and "Must". I have quoted the current WSDC guidelines.

Novice: A competitor should stay in Novice until they have earned at least 20 points in Novice. In addition, a competitor may stay in the Novice division until they have both 20 points and a first place win in Novice.
Intermediate: A competitor should stay in Intermediate until they have earned at least 25 points in Intermediate. In addition, a competitor may stay in the Intermediate division until they have both 25 points and a first place win in Intermediate.
Advanced: You must have at least 25 points in Intermediate in order to move into Advanced.
All Stars: Not all events offer this division. We recommend that at least one of the qualifications to dance in All Stars is that the competitor has at least 40 points in Advanced. However, this is at the event’s discretion.

So, they use the word must in the guidelines. I agree that the points system is to help prevent "sandbagging", but in addition, it is clearly meant to also prevent competitors from dancing up.

[CALI DOLL]

Drousar, I loved your entire post (there's no sense in quoting the whole thing). I agree with you completely. And, as Kel said, it's good to know others agree with our approach.

[drousar]

Correct. The way it is worded now is defintely different then the way it was worded when first released. So the intention, and what is has been forced to become, is different. Attending the meetings and hearing the conversations built around these guidelines is really enlightening. I highly suggest to anyone to attend one when possible. It helps to understand what's going on and to ask questions directly to the source.

[Burger]

Correct. The way it is worded now is defintely different then the way it was worded when first released. So the intention, and what is has been forced to become, is different.

I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but what are you basing your post on, the old guidelines or the current guidelines? When you say, "There is no harm in someone dancing up!", are you referring to the old guidelines or the new ones?

Cali Doll, what is your approach?

[kekka]

uggg! This is actually a stressful topic for me! Back when i was really into J&Js, I got to the point where I was dancing in advanced divisions on a regular basis. Then in 2001, when I started earning points,( iguess it was implemented around then) I had other things happening in life (moving a lot, babies, etc. ), and competing just wasn't a high priority, so I didn't.
Sooo.. here I am 7 years later with a couple of advanced points, and no clue where to go. I feel like everyone looks at me, like who are you all the time, and that although I'd like to enter J&J's it just seems easier to skip it than deal with the rules and point system... I never know what to enter... i feel like I dont have enough recent advanced points to dance advanced (even if my level could be there since I never stopped dancing completely, just competing in J&J), but dont know where I would fall otherwise.

As sad as it seems I've actually thought about it quite a bit, and am kind of avoiding J&J's only because of my confusion about the point system. Most contest coordinators are too busy to stop and talk about this, plus, I have a fear in the back of my mind that they will tell me that I need to go back to newcomer or something, which would have no harm other than crushing my ego. So any how, I just wish that there was an easier way to get the rules interpreted for individual situations.

sorry, I just started rambling, and hope it makes some sort of sense.....

[drousar]

That statement is not referring to any guidelines. That is my opinion.

Look. Here are my thoughts related to nothing else but my personal feelings and experience.

Everyone knows the game they are signing up for. No one forces anyone to dance a J&J. If someone is afraid to draw someone less then their expectations, there are a number of other divisions where you can chose your partner. save the $16 dollars and dance with someone you know you can do well with.

Everyone knows the nature of the beast, random partner, random music. It's the element of surprise that makes J&J fun. I find it fun anyway. It's basically organized social dancing. It's like asking someone to dance before the next song comes on, and boom, a wicked cool song comes on and it becomes your dance high of the weekend.

The J&J gods are funny sometimes. Sometimes the stars align and other times they don't. Nature of the beast!

Too much stock is put into J&J and too much attention to the points system. It's hurting the social aspect of the dance. Why does an event have to be successful, or even considered, only when it has the Council logo on it. (I support the council 100%) it's just an observation.

I didn't become pro becuase of my success in J&Js. I become pro and advanced because of my love of the dance, the time I commit to the dance and the friends that have made my life better, meeting them because of the dance.

Bottom line. Atlanta J&J 5 - 6 years ago. Dancing in it as a Novice dancer with Shaggers, Lindy Hoppers, Novice to Advanced (no all star at the time). You never knew what you were going to get. Loved it! Liked the luck of the draw and it was fun to challenge myself to make it just a little bit further each year. That's what drove me, not points.

** Sorry - A little bit of rambling but I have had chronic Layngitis for a week and haven't talked to anyone. I guess it's a bit of a release :) Thanks for listening.

[CALI DOLL]

Cali Doll, what is your approach?

Hi Burger,

Well, my "approach" is just regarding Newcomer/Novice (not any other levels...since New/Nov is a special case, IMO).

I've got a couple of Newcomer points and I'm going to start competing in Novice during events where it's allowed with under 5 Newcomer points. I like the idea of challenging myself with a higher level (that is not out of my league).

Is it weird for me to say it just feels like it's time? I dunno...it just feels like the right decision to me.

[Alina]

Doug,

Just wanted to say: I totally agree with your post. I think, for the most part, points are guidelines not rules. The only rule seems to be re moving up from Advanced to All Star (with the use of the word "must"). The rules re moving up from Intermediate to Advanced or from Novice to Intermediate seem to be intentionally more flexible (otherwise the authors would have used the word "must" there too as opposed to "should"). I am an attorney and that's how I interpret the rules:)

As for the overarching intent behind the rules, I agree with you too: I think it would be unfair for people to sandbag, especially given the money usually involved in winning J&J. But dancing up? What exactly is so unfair about it? That someone who truly belongs in advanced gets someone who only has ten points in intermediate but chose to dance advanced? I'm sorry but how many of us have had amazing dances with someone who wasn't as "advanced" as us? Happens all the time! Just because you cannot lead someone in a triple-back-flip move doesn't mean you cannot win with them if you have fun with them, interpret music with them and just dance... A good follow is a good follow no matter what level she dances... Same with a good leader.

And to prove that it's not about the points but about the dancing: I moved up to Intermediate from Novice with 15 Novice points and immediately made Intermediate finals at Boogie by the Bay. I didn't have 20 Novice points but did I really have to wait to get them to "belong" in Intermediate? I would argue not...

[westcoastjunkie]

Here is a little excerpt taken from an interview with Mario Robau on Swing Dancer Magazine's web site...

The hot topic everywhere is competitions, mainly the point system -there's a lot of people who have issues with the point system - many dancers moving up too fast and people complaining. Would you mind discussing your views on this?
I don't want to speak ill of the point system, I don't want to speak ill of any system because at least it's an attempt - you know what I mean? And any attempt is better than no attempt.

Do I agree entirely with the point system? No.

I don't believe that 17 points makes you a baby dancer and 18 points makes you an All-Star. I don't like defining my dancing, or anybodies dancing, on how many points they got through a council or organization or association. I don't believe in that, I think that what makes you a good dancer is the fact that you dance well with your partner to the music.

And it's not convention based or competition based. I think that there's to much, entirely too much emphasis being placed on how many points you have - and that's just a simple question of going to dance events. If you want to make it to All-Stars, what you need to do is take out a second mortgage on your house and go to every convention. You'll get one point at every convention, you'll have forty points, you'll be an All-Star, and there you go.

So what do you think defines a dancer? How should a dancer know that he's good enough to move up or not?
It's not about moving up or down. I don't understand the predicament the dancers are in these days because when I started it was guts and go. I mean, if you had the guts, you got in it. And baby dancers that had been dancing three weeks competed against professionals. That's no longer the case. Now there are divisions for people born on Tuesday. I think that what should make you move up is the fact that you're comfortable dancing at those higher levels and also the people that you're dancing with should be comfortable dancing with you.

Final question: In a couple of sentences, what would you tell a class of dancers that were motivated to get better and better and better?
Forget competition would be the first thing I tell them. What defines a good dance is you having fun and your partner having fun and neither of you getting hurt. I would think back to why you started in the first place - you didn't start this to make a dance career, you started this to have fun. So have fun. If you want to compete, play by the rules of the competition: don't bend them, don't break them.

:cool::cool::cool: Bravo...applause, applause (<-- could really use some more emoticons right here)

I'm really enjoying reading this thread. Last time someone posted this topic on a different discussion board there was a lot of complaining about the system being "unfair", or the judging, or that the other people in their divisions were holding them back, etc., etc.

I think all of the posts here have been mostly positive and seem to reflect a healthy attitude. I find this refreshing and reassuring as non-competitive dancer. I remember when one's dance division was all important and dancers related to and identified one another by their competition level rather than as individuals. It's one of (but not the only) reason I stopped competing in J&Js. I've recently been considering getting back into the game and I find this conversation encouraging.

To the frustrated Newcomer/Novice dancers in the discussion, if social dancing is not enough and you really want to play the game of Jack & JIlls, I offer this:

1. A J&J contest is no different than walking in to the the main ballroom at a big event and doing lots of social dancing with people you have never danced with before. You will have some really fun dances, some okay dances, some frustrating dances. Some nights you may find your groove and you're having fun all night long. Some nights you can't find your groove to save your life (no matter how much you drink). Most nights you will also likely learn something new. And the outcome is hardly ever solely the credit or fault of the other person. A J&J is just a bit more intense because it is condensed and you know you are being watched and judged. I urge you to watch the professional J&Js and you will see even the best of the best have mistakes and miscues with their partners, along with the occasional train wreck.

2. I also suggest you find another measure of your success than whether or not you make finals. Are you having more fun dances than frustrating ones? Are you making new friends? Are you getting more comfortable in front of a crowd (if that applies to you)? Generally, overall, do you think your dancing and partnering skills are improving, even if your placement in competition may not be? Instead of viewing a J&J as a Pass/Fail (Good Enough/Not Good Enough) test, take it on as an opportunity of some sort. But please, please, please do not get hung up on the label. Of course we all want to succeed in our undertakings and we all like to be acknowledge but making it to the finals is not necessarily proof of how good you are. It's an indication of how well you danced and how good of a partner you were that day with those partners compared to the other competitors that day, as determined by the judges who perhaps got to look at you for no more than a minute, most likely less than that at the big events. Those competition levels reflect points earned in competition. Most of the people in the Advance competition division are advanced dancers, but some are not (IMO). And there are some advance dancers still in the Intermediate division. There are some novice dancers in Intermediate and visa-versa. Socially, I've danced with dancers from the entire spectrum and there are always dancers in the Novice or Intermediate divisions who are an absolute joy to dance with and I always look forward to more dances with them.

3. Lastly, and probably most importantly, be patient. Ask Victor how long it took him to get to his current division. In order to move up to the next level in J&Js it will require you to dance well and be a good partner "that day with those partners compared to the other competitors that day, as determined by the judges who perhaps got to look at you for no more than a minute, most likely less than that at the big events", consistently and repeatedly. Easier said than done. But if you're having fun doing J&Js, by all means keep at it.

[swingdj]

:cool::cool::cool: Bravo...applause, applause (<-- could really use some more emoticons right here)

I'm really enjoying reading this thread. Last time someone posted this topic on a different discussion board there was a lot of complaining about the system being "unfair", or the judging, or that the other people in their divisions were holding them back, etc., etc.

I think all of the posts here have been mostly positive and seem to reflect a healthy attitude. I find this refreshing and reassuring as non-competitive dancer. I remember when one's dance division was all important and dancers related to and identified one another by their competition level rather than as individuals. It's one of (but not the only) reason I stopped competing in J&Js. I've recently been considering getting back into the game and I find this conversation encouraging.

To the frustrated Newcomer/Novice dancers in the discussion, if social dancing is not enough and you really want to play the game of Jack & JIlls, I offer this:

1. A J&J contest is no different than walking in to the the main ballroom at a big event and doing lots of social dancing with people you have never danced with before. You will have some really fun dances, some okay dances, some frustrating dances. Some nights you may find your groove and you're having fun all night long. Some nights you can't find your groove to save your life (no matter how much you drink). Most nights you will also likely learn something new. And the outcome is hardly ever solely the credit or fault of the other person. A J&J is just a bit more intense because it is condensed and you know you are being watched and judged. I urge you to watch the professional J&Js and you will see even the best of the best have mistakes and miscues with their partners, along with the occasional train wreck.

2. I also suggest you find another measure of your success than whether or not you make finals. Are you having more fun dances than frustrating ones? Are you making new friends? Are you getting more comfortable in front of a crowd (if that applies to you)? Generally, overall, do you think your dancing and partnering skills are improving, even if your placement in competition may not be? Instead of viewing a J&J as a Pass/Fail (Good Enough/Not Good Enough) test, take it on as an opportunity of some sort. But please, please, please do not get hung up on the label. Of course we all want to succeed in our undertakings and we all like to be acknowledge but making it to the finals is not necessarily proof of how good you are. It's an indication of how well you danced and how good of a partner you were that day with those partners compared to the other competitors that day, as determined by the judges who perhaps got to look at you for no more than a minute, most likely less than that at the big events. Those competition levels reflect points earned in competition. Most of the people in the Advance competition division are advanced dancers, but some are not (IMO). And there are some advance dancers still in the Intermediate division. There are some novice dancers in Intermediate and visa-versa. Socially, I've danced with dancers from the entire spectrum and there are always dancers in the Novice or Intermediate divisions who are an absolute joy to dance with and I always look forward to more dances with them.

3. Lastly, and probably most importantly, be patient. Ask Victor how long it took him to get to his current division. In order to move up to the next level in J&Js it will require you to dance well and be a good partner "that day with those partners compared to the other competitors that day, as determined by the judges who perhaps got to look at you for no more than a minute, most likely less than that at the big events", consistently and repeatedly. Easier said than done. But if you're having fun doing J&Js, by all means keep at it.

Very well said....you know the bottom line is to have fun...if your not having fun then your doing this dance for the wrong reasons. I have heard several people say that they won't do Jack n Jill's unless points are being given out....I remember when Jack n Jill's were for fun...now, because of the points, and in my opinion, it is making some people snooty and cliquish

[CALI DOLL]

Darn it! I wasn't going to log in again and post AGAIN :rolleyes: ....but, westcoastjunkie, you don't know how helpful it is to be reminded of all of that. Your post made me laugh at how the stars have to align sometimes to progress in these J&J situations. Boy, do I know that! :p

It's funny how somehow the judges don't see how "great" you are even if you are having the worst dance of your life at the time they are watching. lol!

I tend to be a critical person (of myself) by nature and I do have to remember all of the things you stated just now.

Thanks again for that great post.

[Burger]

Doug,
The rules re moving up from Intermediate to Advanced or from Novice to Intermediate seem to be intentionally more flexible (otherwise the authors would have used the word "must" there too as opposed to "should"). I am an attorney and that's how I interpret the rules:)

You are correct for Novice and Intermediate. Advanced requires that You must have at least 25 points in Intermediate in order to move into Advanced.

But dancing up? What exactly is so unfair about it? That someone who truly belongs in advanced gets someone who only has ten points in intermediate but chose to dance advanced? I'm sorry but how many of us have had amazing dances with someone who wasn't as "advanced" as us? Happens all the time!

I don't think anyone will argue that great dances can happen with any combination of levels. Back in the day, levels of competition didn't exist. It was Open. Everyone danced against everyone. That includes the Pros all the way down to newcomer. This didn't go over well because many would never have a chance at making finals or placing. So they came out with levels so people could compete with and against competitors of the same level.

It goes both ways. I don't think anyone would want to compete against someone who was sandbagging. But if a leader was sandbagging and was amazing, I'm sure the follower that he drew wasn't complaining, but everyone else in the division was. So if we don't let competitors dance down, why let them dance up?

As a competitor I want to dance with and against competitors at my level. Unfortunately all we have right now to decide that is the point system. So many people have earned their points and moved along. Why can't everyone else do the same. Like I said in my original post, if you are that good, you will get to the next division. What's the rush???

And to prove that it's not about the points but about the dancing: I moved up to Intermediate from Novice with 15 Novice points and immediately made Intermediate finals at Boogie by the Bay. I didn't have 20 Novice points but did I really have to wait to get them to "belong" in Intermediate? I would argue not...

If it's about the dancing, then why did you move up to Intermediate. if it's truly about the dancing, then competing in Novice and earning all your points is no big deal. If it doesn't matter what level partner you draw, then why move up? If it's just about the dancing, then the point system shouldn't bother you.

[westcoastjunkie]

....I remember when Jack n Jill's were for fun...now, because of the points, and in my opinion, it is making some people snooty and cliquish

I remember those days too (and wearing jeans in a J&J was the norm ;)). I have no problem whatsoever with the current point system and structure, but I too noticed a change in tone among the J&J competitors when it took place, and not really a good change IMO.

However, I think the pendulum has been slowly starting to swing back the other way and I'm generally finding that the competitors in the Advance or higher divisions are less closed off socially from a few years ago. I'm also finding that the Advanced competitors seem to take their successes and failures in stride, but generally not so much among competitors in the lower divisions. :confused:

Just my personal, overly general impressions, not a statement of fact.

[circlecityswing]

Too much stock is put into J&J and too much attention to the points system. It's hurting the social aspect of the dance. Why does an event have to be successful, or even considered, only when it has the Council logo on it. (I support the council 100%) it's just an observation.


Thank you for pointing this out. It would seem obvious, but it's true. Just because so many people focus so much on the points doesn't make it the be all and end all of a competition event. You can have just as much fun (and sometimes more) at an event without points as one with them. As a community, it is our responsibility to educate ourselves on what is/is not good for the community as a whole. It does the WCS community no good to have new dancers who believe that points are everything.


2. I also suggest you find another measure of your success than whether or not you make finals. Are you having more fun dances than frustrating ones? Are you making new friends? Are you getting more comfortable in front of a crowd (if that applies to you)? Generally, overall, do you think your dancing and partnering skills are improving, even if your placement in competition may not be? Instead of viewing a J&J as a Pass/Fail (Good Enough/Not Good Enough) test, take it on as an opportunity of some sort. But please, please, please do not get hung up on the label. Of course we all want to succeed in our undertakings and we all like to be acknowledge but making it to the finals is not necessarily proof of how good you are. It's an indication of how well you danced and how good of a partner you were that day with those partners compared to the other competitors that day, as determined by the judges who perhaps got to look at you for no more than a minute, most likely less than that at the big events. Those competition levels reflect points earned in competition. Most of the people in the Advance competition division are advanced dancers, but some are not (IMO). And there are some advance dancers still in the Intermediate division. There are some novice dancers in Intermediate and visa-versa. Socially, I've danced with dancers from the entire spectrum and there are always dancers in the Novice or Intermediate divisions who are an absolute joy to dance with and I always look forward to more dances with them.

This is a great point. Just because you compete in the Advanced division doesn't automatically make you an Advanced dancer. I likewise have had awesome dances with people from all ends of the spectrum. I have had as much fun as events that don't have points, as the dancers there are focused on the fun and joy of dancing.

Unfortunately, we are a competitive crowd, and want some way to measure ourselves against others. Right now, the points system is what we have, and there is not presently a better system. I have heard and seen arguments over what should be changed in the points system, most of them very heated. I am not interested in any of them for this discussion, only in that any new 'points system' should not be the focus of improvement for dancers. Dancers should focus on the enjoyment and fun of the dance.

With all that said, I plan to take a piece of advice from a friend of mine...If in doubt, shut up and dance....

See you on the floor.

[chandra]

Personally, I like that some regions have "Newcomer." We don't have that level around here, and I would have had a much smoother entry into the competitive world had I started there.

.

I agree with that, IF and only IF the division is a true newcomer division. I think on the east coast some of the newcomer divisions are pretty much just novice, renamed, since such a large majority of novice dancers have less than 5 points.

I dont know about you all, but I think this is fairly common, I spent about 2 years in novice. 1.75 of those years I had no points. Once I started getting points I was out in a couple of months.

I think newcomer should have 2 requirements, so say: "One can no longer dance newcomer if one has more than 5 points, or has entered more than 3 JnJs"

otherwise newcomer becomes ginormous, and still really difficult, and intimidating for the newer dancers.The plus is Novice becomes small, its mostly the cream of the crop, and the truely good dancers can shine how they deserve. The problem is, we didnt accomplish our goal of providing a less intimidating environment for newbies to have a supportive first competition experience!

I think most everyone would agree, (especially girls) that intermediate is way unporportionately easy. I spent two years not making finals in novice. I made my first intermediate final (that wasnt dallas dance, cause thats just hugenormous). I think at alot of events making finals in intermediate is way less challenging than finals in novice. I bet at phoenix (110 girls in novice, 40 in intermediate) if you took the novice finalists, and had them dance intermediate, a good percentage of them might make finals. I think if you switched it (intermediate in novice) , that might not necessarily happen.
Thats just supposing, obviously. Maybe its not actually true. Not an experiement Ive done, or that is possible to do probably... But it would be fun to know the theoretical results!

[KelKel]

consistently and repeatedly.[/B] Easier said than done. But if you're having fun doing J&Js, by all means keep at it.


I hope that I am not misrepresenting myself. My frustration did not come in the form of competing or patience or any of this. I love to dance and don't need competition to find joy in it. My confusion was in the rules around the Newcomer/Novice division. It is not clear clut and so as a newbie I struggle at times at knowing when I should move up. The transition from Newcomer to Novice is not like any of the other divisions and more wide open for interpretation. I don't really consider myself that much of a newcomer. I've been dancing WCS close to two years and I am just trying to figure with the cloudy rules in this area when I should move to Novice. I am fully aware that I will more than like be in Novice for a while but it is my understanding that Newcomer is there to get you use to competing so that you don't go into Novice green. I am patient but I also am confused by the rules themselves for the Newcomer category specifially. This conversation has helped to clear my confusion. I am going to follow the rules of the convention I attend as is advised by the WSDC. I think in doing that I should be fine.

Thanks for all your suggestions. I compete for the fun of it and I dance for the love of it. :)

[Alina]

If it's about the dancing, then why did you move up to Intermediate. if it's truly about the dancing, then competing in Novice and earning all your points is no big deal. If it doesn't matter what level partner you draw, then why move up? If it's just about the dancing, then the point system shouldn't bother you.

Well, because, I did a small open-to-all-below-intermediate local event that gave out intermediate points and placed in it. As far as I know, once you have intermediate points, you cannot dance in Novice, no? So, there you go - any other questions?

[Jerry Wang]

I think newcomer should have 2 requirements, so say: "One can no longer dance newcomer if one has more than 5 points, or has entered more than 3 JnJs"

That's a good suggestion on amending the WDSC guidelines for newcomer level, however, correct me if I'm wrong but a J&J competitor is only listed in the WDSC registry if they are awarded points otherwise they don't keep a record of what you competed in.

[Burger]

Well, because, I did a small open-to-all-below-intermediate local event that gave out intermediate points and placed in it. As far as I know, once you have intermediate points, you cannot dance in Novice, no? So, there you go - any other questions?

If it was an open to all below intermediate than it shouldn't have been awarded intermediate points in the first place per WSDC. Either way, it is not true that once you have intermediate points you can no longer dance in Novice. This is one of the reasons the petitioning process exists. I had a similar situation. I competed at a Country event and the J&J divisions were combined because the divisions didn't have enough competitors. So it ended up being an Open division. Open gets awarded Advanced points. I won and received Advanced points, even though I was Intermediate. I had to petition to dance down at every comp until I got all my points in Intermediate.

It is the responsibility of the competitor to make sure he/she meets the guidelines, but it seems from this thread alone that many people are unclear on the guidelines. I think part of the problem is that each event can make their own rules based on the guidelines, when it would be much clearer if each event adopted the guidelines as their rules.

[Burger]

That's a good suggestion on amending the WDSC guidelines for newcomer level, however, correct me if I'm wrong but a J&J competitor is only listed in the WDSC registry if they are awarded points otherwise they don't keep a record of what you competed in.

Yup, that is true. The WSDC only tracks the finalists of a jack and jill, and sometimes not all the finalists depending on the tier of the division. Points are awarded to a certain number of finalists based on the tier. Everyone else is not tracked.

[dancin_weezie]

That's a good suggestion on amending the WDSC guidelines for newcomer level, however, correct me if I'm wrong but a J&J competitor is only listed in the WDSC registry if they are awarded points otherwise they don't keep a record of what you competed in.

That is correct! There is no record of comps you've been in when you don't final and/or place. It would be interesting though ;)

[bethany]

Well, because, I did a small open-to-all-below-intermediate local event that gave out intermediate points and placed in it. As far as I know, once you have intermediate points, you cannot dance in Novice, no? So, there you go - any other questions?

Bottom line: if you don't want to move up, do your investigating about the points before you enter a competition. This was a preventable situation. Same for any level of dance, be it newcomer to novice: once you place in novice, you can't go back to newcomer.

[Khrystyna]

BUT...I "must" dance in the Novice J&J!

I have no desire to dance in Novice. I also have no desire to throw myself on the mercy of a head judge who might not know me. So, until there is a painless way to skip over divisions, there is darn little to entice me to dance J&J.

As for the argument "...well, if you're that good, then you'll win easily..." Except that higher level divisions typically have much better partners. It's possible that many intermediate dancers would not even place if given a newcomer partner. Watch "You Mama Can't Dance" for an example.

--Stan Graves

Well I am a Novice dancer, but I work on my skills by dancing as much as I can, practicing with my partner and taking private lessons. Yet, recently I was at an event that my final partner did not do one triple! AWGH! After the competition I made my partner watch 2 of this persons dances to show him what my draw was like.

So although I am a novice dancer, I am doing my part in getting better. Stan what I say to you is think about the Novice dancers out there like me, who would love to get a draw like you!!
:D

[SoundInMotionDJ]

Stan what I say to you is think about the Novice dancers out there like me, who would love to get a draw like you!!
:D

:blushing:

[Alina]

Bottom line: if you don't want to move up, do your investigating about the points before you enter a competition. This was a preventable situation. Same for any level of dance, be it newcomer to novice: once you place in novice, you can't go back to newcomer.

I never implied I wasn't ok with the situation and wanted to prevent it. I knew I'd be awarded intermediate points if I placed, never said I didn't.

I also didn't feel like I needed to petition anyone to dance down in the next event because my next event happened to be the much more competitive Boogie by the Bay - I thought that since I happened to have earned intermediate points, I may as well try my "luck" at an intermediate event. I feel that I was justified in doing that since I made finals at what is arguably the most competitive J&J event in the country. I've competed at intermediate ever since. And this is precisely what I am saying about points - they should guidelines not rules, for the most part. I think the general dancing public tends to agree with this view - they judge your dancing prowess by your dancing, not your points.

[Alina]

If it was an open to all below intermediate than it shouldn't have been awarded intermediate points in the first place per WSDC.

Below intermediate INCLUDING intermediate.

[Burger]

Below intermediate INCLUDING intermediate.

Ok, that should have still been tracked as Novice. If a division is combined it is tracked by the lowest division, except for Open which is tracked as advanced. If you have a Novice/Intermediate comp it's tracked as Novice. If you have a Newcomer/Novice/Intermediate comp it's tracked as Newcomer.

It's unfortunate, because if the points would had been tracked correctly you would have been even closer to obtaining your novice points.

Yes, they are guidelines. This means that each event will follow the guidelines differently, which is a problem as I stated earlier. You may attend an event that is strict on the guidelines and they will make you dance novice, even though you have Intermediate points. I have seen this happen and one time someone actually pulled out of the comp because they couldn't dance in the higher division.

My point is this, if you get all your points in each division then you don't have to defend yourself, as you are now. I am not addressing you personally, this seems to be a trend with many competitors.

[Alina]

Firstly, this comp wasn't designated as Novice/Intermediate or newcomer/novice/intermediate. It was basically open to all dancers who did not have advanced points - what are the rules on that then?

Secondly, I am not really defending myself. I think I belong at the level I am dancing at currently. I think I've followed the rules such as they are re moving up from Novice to Intermediate. I think that if I don't belong in Intermediate at a certain event then I'd be selected out by the judges in the prelims, which are judged individually. No harm done except to my ego and I don't see how my ego is something the rules should be addressing.

[notfromchicago]

now from what i've read of this thread(and mind you i haven't yet read the whole thing, least of all half the thing[its bloody long!]) i think that th points are guidelines for events and their competitors. i also think that the guidelines should be followed. i myself treat them as rules and we'll see if that changes but for now thats how i view them. i also think that every one, with exception being made for those that were dancing in advanced before the point system was instated and have no or few dance points, i think they should be reinstated to advanced or if they wish they could start at intermediate or even novice. but as for all those who have(like me) started dancing and competing AFTER the point system was enacted should have to work their was up through each division according to the guidelines set in place by the WSDC. that is my take and as i think every one else is i'm more than happy to discuss my take on this and others take on the issue at hand.

[Burger]

Firstly, this comp wasn't designated as Novice/Intermediate or newcomer/novice/intermediate. It was basically open to all dancers who did not have advanced points - what are the rules on that then?

It would be recorded as Novice. If you want to learn more about the WSDC guidelines you can read them here (http://swingdancecouncil.com/library/WSDC%20Points%20Registry%20Document.pdf)

Secondly, I am not really defending myself. I think I belong at the level I am dancing at currently. I think I've followed the rules such as they are re moving up from Novice to Intermediate. I think that if I don't belong in Intermediate at a certain event then I'd be selected out by the judges in the prelims, which are judged individually. No harm done except to my ego and I don't see how my ego is something the rules should be addressing.

The guidelines were put in place for a reason. If each competitors division was decided by their own personal opinion, then I don't think we would need the guidelines at all.

I don't feel it's the judges responsibility to decide where someone dances, I feel it's the competitors. Not every event has a prelim. In fact, many events go right to finals as the division levels get higher.

Each competitor can make their own choice on how to earn their way. Hopefully this thread will educate competitors on WSDC Guidelines, best practices, and personal experiences.

[Burger]

i also think that every one, with exception being made for those that were dancing in advanced before the point system was instated and have no or few dance points, i think they should be reinstated to advanced or if they wish they could start at intermediate or even novice. but as for all those who have(like me) started dancing and competing AFTER the point system was enacted should have to work their was up through each division according to the guidelines set in place by the WSDC. that is my take and as i think every one else is i'm more than happy to discuss my take on this and others take on the issue at hand.

I agree. I think that advanced dancers should be able to continue as advanced if they competed in advanced before the point system. It might be tough to say they should be allowed to dance in Novice. No system is perfect, especially if it isn't implemented from the very beginning. I agree that competitors that have started competing with the WSDC guidelines in place should follow them.

[bethany]

The guidelines were put in place for a reason. If each competitors division was decided by their own personal opinion, then I don't think we would need the guidelines at all.

I don't feel it's the judges responsibility to decide where someone dances, I feel it's the competitors. Not every event has a prelim. In fact, many events go right to finals as the division levels get higher.

Each competitor can make their own choice on how to earn their way. Hopefully this thread will educate competitors on WSDC Guidelines, best practices, and personal experiences.
Well said! Heck, if each division WAS decided by the dancer's opinion, then there would be no intermediate, seeing as SO many intermediates feel they belong in advanced before they even start placing, hehehe. ;) No wait, there would be an intermediate for the novice dancers who place at one event and feel they're ready to move up! *this is joking, by the way*

[notfromchicago]

another thing that i see is people who exploit the points system. people who go to small events work their way up to advanced and then start teaching and call themselves pro's when if they went to a large event(phoenix for example) they probably wouldn't make novice finals much less intermediate or advanced. now for me i'm doing the exact opposite , i'm not competing at smaller local or regional events and waiting for the larger events and competing there to see how i stack up against real competition. for me that is the best way to go about getting out of intermediate at least. but idk what do y'all think?

[vegas4x4]

another thing that i see is people who exploit the points system. people who go to small events work their way up to advanced and then start teaching and call themselves pro's when if they went to a large event(phoenix for example) they probably wouldn't make novice finals much less intermediate or advanced. now for me i'm doing the exact opposite , i'm not competing at smaller local or regional events and waiting for the larger events and competing there to see how i stack up against real competition. for me that is the best way to go about getting out of intermediate at least. but idk what do y'all think?

I definitely agree with you here. There are a couple dancers that have moved in to advanced quickly due to placing high in smaller competitions and they aren't making finals in advanced now.

I think it depends on what level you want to be competitive. For me, I look at the smaller competitions and a lot of the country/WSDC competitions as the easiest 20% and I see Boogie/Phoenix/etc as the hardest 20%. Personally I am not feeling like I have to make it at the top dog events but you won't find me scrounging for points at the smallest of events.

I just hope I never get all hung up on competitions the way some people get scathingly upset when they don't make finals/place. I don't want to let something like that ruin my whole weekend.

Honestly I've thought of just not competing, but I do enjoy it and it does give me something to work towards. And, like it or not, I've found as I do better in competitions I get better social dances. Dancers who wouldn't give me the time of day before are now asking me to dance.

Since we're talking about the quality of competition at different events, what do you guys view as the most difficult JnJ competitive events? I'm thinking at least Phoneix and Boogie. What else? The Open? MadJAM? I haven't been to any events back east so I don't know which are the tough events over there.

[notfromchicago]

I just hope I never get all hung up on competitions the way some people get scathingly upset when they don't make finals/place. I don't want to let something like that ruin my whole weekend.

hahaha, that makes me think back to Chicago Classic a couple of weeks ago now. I was actually hoping NOT to place! i only did strictly(didn't make finals) and pro/am but i was really hoping that i wouldn't place. for me at every competition i've competed in i've placed and or won. every single one so far i was kind of looking forward to...idk....being disappointed? but ya it just made me laugh. :blushing:

[Alina]

I don't feel it's the judges responsibility to decide where someone dances, I feel it's the competitors. Not every event has a prelim. In fact, many events go right to finals as the division levels get higher.



It is the judge's responsibility to judge someone's dancing skill. There is such a disparity in levels of dancing within each competitive level, that, as it is, everytime they judge one category they are looking at very different skill levels among the competitors. I don't see how it's not their responsibility to choose, as they are choosing finalists (or even placing people), the best dancers of the group in front of them at that point in time. If someone is so stunningly out of place, then wouldn't they be judged as such anyway?

If I were still dancing novice (by virtue of maybe attending 2-3 events a year and not getting much of a chance at accumulating points), I'd have people griping at me, questioning my dancing novice. As it is, I had people question my dancing intermediate at MadJam and I had to remind them that I have maybe 1/2 the points needed to move up to advanced. Yes, it shut them up but they still questioned me! So is it better to move up if you think you're ready or be accused of sandbagging all the time? According to Doug, who knows about the history of this stuff way better than I, points were instituted to prevent sandbagging so how does this intent behind the points figure into the debate I am having with myself? Should I follow the intent of the law or the questionable letter of it that noone seems to agree with entirely anyway?

[bethany]

According to Doug, who knows about the history of this stuff way better than I....

FYI, Burger deals with wsdc guidelines every weekend. So does his staff.

[CrazyKate]

As it is, I had people question my dancing intermediate at MadJam and I had to remind them that I have maybe 1/2 the points needed to move up to advanced. Yes, it shut them up but they still questioned me! So is it better to move up if you think you're ready or be accused of sandbagging all the time?
Even though you may be accused of sandbagging, you aren't actually sandbagging - you're playing by the rules. I'd say it's better for people to be asked why they aren't at the next level when they don't have enough points rather than why they are dancing up without points.

[vegas4x4]

As it is, I had people question my dancing intermediate at MadJam and I had to remind them that I have maybe 1/2 the points needed to move up to advanced. Yes, it shut them up but they still questioned me! So is it better to move up if you think you're ready or be accused of sandbagging all the time?

I'd be taking that comment as a compliment and moving on.

I think the difference is that you're suggesting you're sandbagging due to the comments of observers and people you dance with? Wouldn't it be better to leave that to the judges through their actual judging?

The reality is that people dance "out of skill level" all the time. It's the nature of competitions and the idea is that eventually the point system will take care of that.

[drousar]

My best suggestion is for eveyone to attend a council meeting. It's the best way to truly understand what is going on. What is was and what is has become and WHY.

Unfortunatly I can only think of two events right now that hold council meetings. That would be the US Open and Atlanta. If anyone knows of any more please add to the list.

I have pushed recently that the council should require those events that are council recognized to hold seminars early in the weekend that are informative sessions about the council, guidlelines and relative placement. Unfortunatly the event directors in the room shrugged at the thought. Claiming there is not enough room in the schedule. It doesn't have to be in the main ballroom and shoot, it could be 9 am. If people really wanted to the info, they'd get up! It's better than not having one at all.

I will be holding a seminar at my events this year in an effort to make it more popular. It could only help the situation. This isn't the first thread I have read redarding this topic and I believe it won't be the last.

[Burger]

I have pushed recently that the council should require those events that are council recognized to hold seminars early in the weekend that are informative sessions about the council, guidlelines and relative placement. Unfortunatly the event directors in the room shrugged at the thought. Claiming there is not enough room in the schedule. It doesn't have to be in the main ballroom and shoot, it could be 9 am. If people really wanted to the info, they'd get up! It's better than not having one at all.

I agree with this 100%. It's tough for many competitors to get out to Atlanta or the Open. It would be nice if event set aside 1 hour and dedicate it to WSDC education/Q&A.

[Alina]

Even though you may be accused of sandbagging, you aren't actually sandbagging - you're playing by the rules. I'd say it's better for people to be asked why they aren't at the next level when they don't have enough points rather than why they are dancing up without points.

The problem with that is that former question is asked all the time while the latter isn't. I know several people who danced up at MadJam without having the points to do so and noone batted an eyelash. People seem to only care about sandbagging and, I think, rightly so, especially at an event that has a jackpot prize... It's human nature to care about someone breaking the rule to many people's detriment rather than someone breaking one and hurting, arguably, noone but themselves. yes, I know they *may* be hurting their potential partner(s); that's why I said "arguably". There are a few "victims" just not, potentially, the entire category...

[Burger]

It is the judge's responsibility to judge someone's dancing skill. There is such a disparity in levels of dancing within each competitive level, that, as it is, everytime they judge one category they are looking at very different skill levels among the competitors. I don't see how it's not their responsibility to choose, as they are choosing finalists (or even placing people), the best dancers of the group in front of them at that point in time. If someone is so stunningly out of place, then wouldn't they be judged as such anyway?

It is their job to judge the division and choose. But it's not their job to decide what division you enter, that's your decision. You are putting a huge assumption that every contest has prelims or semis. They don't. So the judges don't always have the opportunity to choose the finalists.

[Alina]

It is their job to judge the division and choose. But it's not their job to decide what division you enter, that's your decision. You are putting a huge assumption that every contest has prelims or semis. They don't. So the judges don't always have the opportunity to choose the finalists.


I am not assuming prelims. I am assuming that the judges are qualified to choose the best dancer (or the best couple, in the case of a straight final) that they see on the floor. My point is an advanced dancer dancing in advanced can screw up a dance just as badly as an intermediate one dancing in advanced. I am challenging the assumption that points make someone belong or not belong in a level skill-wise. I think that is a huge assumption to make on your part... As has been said in this thread and elsewhere, there are people placing in tiny events and tons of points and there are people venturing out into the big bad world finaling there - I would argue that those who've tested their skills at huge comps and made finals there are just as justified to move up without proper points as those who placed and moved up because they had enough points from tiny events. This is precisely why I think points are better used to prevent sandbagging and not to prevent people from moving up a category.

[westcoastjunkie]

It is the judge's responsibility to judge someone's dancing skill. There is such a disparity in levels of dancing within each competitive level, that, as it is, everytime they judge one category they are looking at very different skill levels among the competitors. I don't see how it's not their responsibility to choose, as they are choosing finalists (or even placing people), the best dancers of the group in front of them at that point in time. If someone is so stunningly out of place, then wouldn't they be judged as such anyway?

It is definitely not the judges' responsibility to determine in which division each competitor belongs. That IS the primary purpose of the point system: so competitors know for themselves which division is appropriate for them. If an event is a WSDC event and offering points to the winning competitors then the event director(s) have a responsibility also to ensure compliance.

If I were still dancing novice (by virtue of maybe attending 2-3 events a year and not getting much of a chance at accumulating points), I'd have people griping at me, questioning my dancing novice. As it is, I had people question my dancing intermediate at MadJam and I had to remind them that I have maybe 1/2 the points needed to move up to advanced. Yes, it shut them up but they still questioned me!

So what if people question this? As you said, once you tell them you do not have the points to compete in Advance they get it, right? That being said, if you truly believe your dancing skills are better suited for an Advance division there are ways to move up without breaking the rules or skirting the intention of the rules either. I believe you have the option of "petitioning" up. Also to consider in addition to dance skills, are partnering skills and competition experience. I don't want to discourage you from competing in the Advance divisions, but likewise I would discourage it if it is based solely on your feelings. Have a conversation or two with some Pros and/or established Advance dancers. Get some constructive feedback and advice from people who have been there and done that.

So is it better to move up if you think you're ready or be accused of sandbagging all the time? According to Doug, who knows about the history of this stuff way better than I, points were instituted to prevent sandbagging so how does this intent behind the points figure into the debate I am having with myself? Should I follow the intent of the law or the questionable letter of it that noone seems to agree with entirely anyway?

God knows I've killed a lot of brain cells over the years, buy my memory is that the point system was instituted as an objective measure of competitors' skills in a rather subjective event. My recallection was that there were a lot of complaints about Open J&Js not being fair because novice dancers had to compete against professionals. Before the point system was instituted, events had started offering different levels of J&Js but competitors put themselves in whatever division they felt like. I recall there being plenty of complaints (mostly from the ambitious and competitive dancers who put a lot of importance on winning) about non-advance dancers in Advance, and to a lesser extent, novice dancers in Intermediate, and the cry was that that is not fair. So then how does anyone determine or decide which dancers are at what level? How do you decide that? Well the decision was not to make that call. Instead, it was decided that it made more sense to create a system to measure competition levels with a supporting but secondary reasoning that the cream will rise to the top. Have some dancers been guilty of dancing down? Of course, but again, the system is designed such that those people can not dance down forever and eventually they are forced to dance in the higher division.

[SHORTYJOY]

I'd like to know how ppl get away with dancing up- I have been in New comer for almost 1 year now and competed in 10 competitions. I only have 4 points. 1 of those is from an event that didn't have New Comer. At the same event I placed 2nd in a Novice Strictly with a partner I met that weekend.

Looking back at J&J's sometimes I danced poorly and often times I pulled a difficult lead. I definitely have room for improvement.

However, I do not feel that I belong in the new comer division. I'd like to dance with dancers who are closer to those I dance with on the social floor in a competition. I'd really would like to dance Novice at Tea Party but I am not sure how to make that happen.

For dancers that have danced up-How did you do it?

[christina]

It's your lucky day Joy - Tea Party's competition rules list 0-4 points for Newcomer.

So there you go.

[coastswing]

I've danced in Advanced 3 times. The first time was Advanced/All Star. I got 2nd. The other two events I got 2nd and then 1st.....I don't have all the points but should I petition up? CLEARLY I'm All Star sandbagging in Advanced. :cool:

Oh, I also danced a strictly in the Pro division at a UCWDC event and won.....I have my sites set on Pro now....:eek:

The 'point' is, the level dancer you are has nothing to do with your competition points. The points are a way to get through a system of divisions and keeping some sort of structure to it. So many people have gone through it, and yes people have petitioned and moved up and done well. Those that stick to the system are offered a longer time to gain experience in each division. That's probably why it suggests more than 10 points in most divisions...you get 10 at the top tier level for a 1st place and that would instantly push you up if it was only looking for 10. But yet the guidelines suggest more....probably to keep you in a division until you have experienced all it has to offer.

If you can't get the points because of your partners in a division but would do better in a higher division, don't tell me you belong in the higher division. To be in intermediate you should be able to dance well with Newcomer/Novice/Intermediate dancers. But if it takes you getting to a higher division to do better, you don't belong...period.

As Burger said, if everyone followed the guidelines as of when they were put in place, there would be no questions about what division people are in.

[Burger]

However, I do not feel that I belong in the new comer division. I'd like to dance with dancers who are closer to those I dance with on the social floor in a competition. I'd really would like to dance Novice at Tea Party but I am not sure how to make that happen.

BTP's rules state that 0-4 points is Newcomer, 0-19 is Novice. That's right, they both start with 0. This is because Newcomer, along with All-Star Champions and Invitational, are tracked by WSDC but not recognized. Newcomer is for people who have very little competition experience. So, for BTP, if you want to dance in Novice you can and still follow the guidelines.

[SHORTYJOY]

It's your lucky day Joy - Tea Party's competition rules list 0-4 points for Newcomer.

So there you go.
Christina- that means I would still have to dance newcomer.

[christina]

Go by Burger's advice then.

[Kelly]

Christina- that means I would still have to dance newcomer.

No, you do not HAVE to dance in Newcomer. You have the choice to dance in either Newcomer OR Novice.... That decision is up to you.....

I agree with Christina....you should go by Brian's Advice.

[Jerry Wang]

I agree the WDSC guidelines needs improvement especially in the areas for newcomer and novice divisions. However, everyone has their own reasons/motivations to either petition moving up or moving down a division. That's their perogative. And if they get their petition approved, then that's the decision of the head judge/judges and we'll just have to respect that decision. Whether someone deserves to be in a division or not, they will learn and experience it for themselves when they compete in that division.

As for me, I'm in no rush to move up to the next division and only will move up when I have to (being that the current guidelines says I'm required to). Currently I'm a novice but have been told many times by people that I shouldn't be in novice. Regardless of what other people says, I know the main reason why I'm still a novice - I just don't do well in JnJ comps. Comps to me don't feel like the social dancing I love and enjoy but I find competing fun and challenging nevertheless. Plus when I do watch myself on video, I say to myself, "yup, I'm in the right division until I improve the following..."

[KelKel]

I'd like to know how ppl get away with dancing up- I have been in New comer for almost 1 year now and competed in 10 competitions. I only have 4 points. 1 of those is from an event that didn't have New Comer. At the same event I placed 2nd in a Novice Strictly with a partner I met that weekend.

Looking back at J&J's sometimes I danced poorly and often times I pulled a difficult lead. I definitely have room for improvement.

However, I do not feel that I belong in the new comer division. I'd like to dance with dancers who are closer to those I dance with on the social floor in a competition. I'd really would like to dance Novice at Tea Party but I am not sure how to make that happen.

For dancers that have danced up-How did you do it?

This is exactly the point I was speaking about. Being a newcomer and knowing when it is acceptable to move to Novice is a confusing one. The rules there are not clearly defined. No where in the WSDC does it say you need 5 points to move forward to Novice. In fact this is how Newcomer is described: normally beginner, perhaps never competed and this is how Novice is described: normally new to dancing in competitions.

There's nothing about points because Newcomer points are recorded but not tracked so how does one know when? The WSDC suggests that you follow the rules of the convention you attend and that is where it gets tricky. As I stated before I only attend events I can make it to and frankly I enjoy Tongue Out There's no secrect strategy to what I do I'm just dancing and having a good time but because I compete I try to be familiar with the rules of the event. I attend one event that requires 5 points to move from Newcomer to Novice, one event that says you need to have made finals at least once in Newcomer to move up to Novice and one that says you must have 1 yr dance experience to move up. I suggest you just follow the rules of the event you attend. This is what I intend to do. As stated by the WSDC and the event I am well within my rights to do this *shrugs* and not breaking rules in anyway.

Now if I move to Novice and do not accumulate the 5 points necessary by the time I attend an event that requires this then my butt's going back to Newcomer at that event LOL! but I'm not going to approach every event by that event's rules. It is the only event I attend that has that rule in place. I think we as Newcomers are in a unique situation outside of the conversation because the rules are cloudy and leave the descretion almost entirely up to you and the event you attend.

Now if I'm way off base please help. Let me know!! but I've been reading everything just trying to get an understanding. This thread was extremely helpful in that. At the end of the day I'm just trying to have a good time and enjoy dancing. When competing stops being fun for me then I'll stop competing but for now it's a challenge and a great way for me to meet new ppl and gives me a new dance experience that I thoroughly enjoy.

[KelKel]

BTP's rules state that 0-4 points is Newcomer, 0-19 is Novice. That's right, they both start with 0. This is because Newcomer, along with All-Star Champions and Invitational, are tracked by WSDC but not recognized. Newcomer is for people who have very little competition experience. So, for BTP, if you want to dance in Novice you can and still follow the guidelines.

LOL!! I wish I could have said what you said as plainly LOL! I just went on and on but it's good to see that I'm not off base :)

[Alina]

I agree the WDSC guidelines needs improvement especially in the areas for newcomer and novice divisions. However, everyone has their own reasons/motivations to either petition moving up or moving down a division. That's their perogative. And if they get their petition approved, then that's the decision of the head judge/judges and we'll just have to respect that decision. Whether someone deserves to be in a division or not, they will learn and experience it for themselves when they compete in that division.


Totally agree. In addition, it should also be the dancer's choice whether or not to petition *down* if they happened to have earned higher level points at in event that only offered those points. A person who doesn't have enough points to graduate a level but has points from the level above should have the choice of which level they want to dance as they legitimately can dance either, according to the rules.

In my case, once I earned intermediate points, I chose NOT to petition down to go back and complete my novice points. Isn't that also my choice then?

Oh, and I never said it's the judges' responsibility to determine what level the competitor belongs in but it IS their responsibility to look at the general level of dancing in that division and rank that dancer accordingly. Which pretty much accomplishes letting that dancer know, thorough that ranking, whether or not they belong in that category at that particular comp. Right?

One more thing, re Novice v. Newcomer: from everything I was told when I started competing in WCS, was that you had a choice about whether or not to dance Newcomer or Novice at a comp. My first comp I danced in Novice because that's what I was told I should do. That was before I even knew about points and such. Noone stopped me.

[Burger]

A person who doesn't have enough points to graduate a level but has points from the level above should have the choice of which level they want to dance as they legitimately can dance either, according to the rules.

Please explain where it says that in the guidelines.

In my case, once I earned intermediate points, I chose NOT to petition down to go back and complete my novice points. Isn't that also my choice then?

You can choose the path you want to follow. You can choose to follow the guidelines or not to follow them. It's all your choice. But don't be shocked when you go to an event and the head judge makes you compete a level down. It's a risk that you take. If you follow the guidelines you don't have any risk because nobody can question you.

One more thing, re Novice v. Newcomer: from everything I was told when I started competing in WCS, was that you had a choice about whether or not to dance Newcomer or Novice at a comp. My first comp I danced in Novice because that's what I was told I should do. That was before I even knew about points and such. Noone stopped me.

You are correct. Newcomer is an optional division unless the event itself specifies otherwise.

[Alina]

You can choose the path you want to follow. You can choose to follow the guidelines or not to follow them. It's all your choice. But don't be shocked when you go to an event and the head judge makes you compete a level down. It's a risk that you take. If follow the guidelines you don't have any risk because nobody can question you.

I don't seem to know the rules as well as you do but if what you say is true, then the head judge technically can make an all-star competitor go back and dance novice if they don't have enough novice points in the system? Is that really how we want to enforce these rules? I know a LOT of advanced and all-start competitors who maybe have 10-15 novice points... And it's true - I cannot point to a guideline that would prevent a head judge from forcing them to dance novice either...

If a head judge wants to make me dance a level below one where I have points, I will dance it, no problem but at what point would you call such rule enforcement ridiculous and not worth the head judge's time? And if such enforcement happens to effect me, couldn't I, on the spot right there petition the head judge to let me dance at the highest level in which I have points? Isn't that in the rules as an option?

[Burger]

I don't seem to know the rules as well as you do but if what you say is true, then the head judge technically can make an all-star competitor go back and dance novice if they don't have enough novice points in the system? Is that really how we want to enforce these rules? I know a LOT of advanced and all-start competitors who maybe have 10-15 novice points... And it's true - I cannot point to a guideline that would prevent a head judge from forcing them to dance novice either...

If a head judge wants to make me dance a level below one where I have points, I will dance it, no problem but at what point would you call such rule enforcement ridiculous and not worth the head judge's time? And if such enforcement happens to effect me, couldn't I, on the spot right there petition the head judge to let me dance at the highest level in which I have points? Isn't that in the rules as an option?

Yes, I am one of them. One thing to note is that the guidelines were not always as they are now. Doug has pointed this out a couple times in this thread. When I started competing I had already been dancing WCS for many years but not competitively. At the time the guidelines were even more unclear and I approached the head judge asking what division I should dance in. The head judge said that I should start in Intermediate but to be sure to get all my points, even if I get a first place win. So, I did exactly what the head judge said. If I started now, with the current guidelines in place, I believe the head judge would have started me in novice.

Yes, you can petition. I think the head judge will make their decision based on your personal points record. If your record is questionable they may make you dance down a level. I have personally seen it happen recently.

[Arjay]

Where to begin?

I feel that there are too many people concerning themselves with earning points to move up divisions. And I'm not talking about too fast...I'm talking about too much all together.

As mentioned by many before, I think we've gotten away from the essence of the social dance. Too many individuals thinking the quality of their own dance is based on the division they dance and the quantity of points they possess.

Competing is a game. At least in today's society it is. It was once described to me as the most perfect social dance you've had and someone happened to be judging you. But now it's all about how you play the game. I'd even say that it's allowed the swing community to develop 2 major types of dancer. One extreme is the feel good social dancer. For example I use my buddy Joe Ho from the bay area. Joe Ho known to most as the social dance god of Northern California, is one of the best social dance leaders I know.(i've even followed him) but even he admits that he can't, won't, hasn't and doesn't care to do well in competition. He has created a name for himself that doesn't involve his ranking.
He and I both know that there are certain criteria that have been established in today's community as acceptable and encouraged technique to look aesthetically good on the floor. Looking is different than feeling folks. That should be obvious.
And that is the other extreme. The leader/follower that aesthetically looks great but really doesn't feel that impressive. We've all danced with them!!!

Yes, at one time I believe that both the competitive criteria and the social criteria were the same. I strive to do, teach, coach, choreograph, etc. an equilibrium of looking good and feeling good. But realize, that's not the world we dance in today.

I'd even go to the extent that there is pro-am criteria, separate from prelim jack and jill, separate from finals jack and jill, separate from divisions...etc. There is a different way to conduct yourself in each of these situations to effectively play the game?!?! unfortunately...but i don't encourage that!!!
I don't like that but again, that's just how it is. it's a game.

Not to mention...what's the rush????I'll tell you from personal experience...champions is hard and not very easy to get into. Plus, if you don't plan on making dance a career, even more so, what is the rush? where do you plan on going? not to bring up another topic, making WCS your career just because you've had success in jack and jills here and there isn't a wise decision.

I can't speak for any other pro, not even my own partner Melissa on this next comment. "All the current pros/champions I know and have known have always brought something special/important/unique (probably more adjectives) to this dance community. And I don't think any of them were ever in a rush to get where they are today. I also believe that none of them ever defined themselves by how many points they carried."

I wanted to comment about something mentioned before about dancers wanting to climb rank also because they feel they can do better with better dancers in higher divisions than they can in lower divisions. (did that make sense? hope so)
That reminds me of a comment a student made in a lesson.... he said to me "when I lead my partner she can't seem to get it and yet when I lead the more advanced followers they do just fine"(partner also present for the lesson) I had to convince him that he was just as at fault in his lead and that perhaps the more advanced followers were compensating for the lack there of, thus giving the illusion of him being better than he perceived himself to be.
I feel this may be the case with the leaders/followers feeling they can do better with better partners from advanced divisions. They don't realize they're only fooling themselves.

[whipkitten]

Even though you may be accused of sandbagging, you aren't actually sandbagging - you're playing by the rules. I'd say it's better for people to be asked why they aren't at the next level when they don't have enough points rather than why they are dancing up without points.

This has been happening to me the last few months - same reason! They ask me why I am not dancing in Advanced and I have to say that I don't have the points yet.

I'm just playing by the rules and paying my dues! But I do agree that it feels better to have people think that I should be higher than I am rather than not good enough to be in the next level! :p

[Burger]

I feel that there are too many people concerning themselves with earning points to move up divisions. And I'm not talking about too fast...I'm talking about too much all together.

As mentioned by many before, I think we've gotten away from the essence of the social dance. Too many individuals thinking the quality of their own dance is based on the division they dance and the quantity of points they possess.

I wanted to comment about something mentioned before about dancers wanting to climb rank also because they feel they can do better with better dancers in higher divisions than they can in lower divisions. (did that make sense? hope so)
That reminds me of a comment a student made in a lesson.... he said to me "when I lead my partner she can't seem to get it and yet when I lead the more advanced followers they do just fine"(partner also present for the lesson) I had to convince him that he was just as at fault in his lead and that perhaps the more advanced followers were compensating for the lack there of, thus giving the illusion of him being better than he perceived himself to be.
I feel this may be the case with the leaders/followers feeling they can do better with better partners from advanced divisions. They don't realize they're only fooling themselves.


Arjay, you bring up a great point as many others have in this thread. I believe that many want to move up fast because they are using their competition level to define their dance ability/talent/expertise etc.

I agree...What's the rush? If you're not defining your dance ability by your competition level, then why rush? If you are, then I think you're competing for the wrong reason. I think this might make for a separate topic..."Why do you compete?".

I agree with the "compensating" statement. I believe this happens on the social and competition floor. I personally try to make my partner look as good as possible and make the dance as enjoyable as possible. In some cases I will have to compensate to make that happen as, I'm sure, many have compensated for me.

I think this is an excellent point for those who believe that higher level dancers should be able to have a great/winning dance with any level dancer and who promote "dancing up" as a good thing.

[Arjay]

My second competition ever was at a small event Southbay in San Jose, CA. Used to be one of the biggest country/swing comps in the bay area.(before my time)

point being...I was dancing in Advanced division...(yes my second comp ever was advanced...so was my first comp ever) and one of the other local dancers who was truly in Intermediate was pushed to be in advanced because they were short followers and wanted to make it balanced. Error one: exactly what we were talking about in terms of not dancing your division.
In this case, she didn't want to be pushed up...
Anyways, she pulled yours truly!!! First words out of her mouth was "don't be pulling any of that hip hop sh%t on me Arjay! (with a smile of course)
I took care of her, hopefully instilled a sense of calmness, confidence, and fun. Was really a great dance!

We ended up placing second!!! She was shocked!!! When awards came up, "holy sh%t!!" was her response. She liked to say that a lot i guess.

Someone had made a comment to me "that's what it means to be advanced!"

[whipdancer]

I wanted to comment about something mentioned before about dancers wanting to climb rank also because they feel they can do better with better dancers in higher divisions than they can in lower divisions. (did that make sense? hope so)... <snip> ...I feel this may be the case with the leaders/followers feeling they can do better with better partners from advanced divisions. They don't realize they're only fooling themselves.


I think this hits the nail on the head. I hear it from my students. I hear it from my competitors. I hear it when I'm just being a flower on the wall observing the ebb and flow at a dance weekend.

I decided a long time ago to dance for me. As a result, I don't do well in competitions. I have many great dances with many great dancers - but I recognize that my dance isn't going to suddenly vault me into the All Stars or Champions. I'm willing to win the judges over one at a time.

[heatherleigh]

Why can't everyone just play by the rules?

If everyone got their points based on the rules, and moved up when they accumulated what they needed, then there would be no need to have ten pages of this conversation.

Instead of a person having to petition up at every event, why don't they a) go back and get thier points(if they are that great it'll be easy right? if they don't want to, does that go back to ego versus love of dance?) or b)if the overall consensus is that there are some people that should be grandfathered, why can't wsdc ceate some coding to put their status in there?


Then it goes back to playing by the rules. I don't get the jumping around. People who jump up don't realize what they are playing with and how on a large scale they don't normally have the skills neccessary for the next level. They think it's only about the partner they get... but what about the partner who gets them?

let hold hand and sing kumbaya now. k?

[Arjay]

posted by heatherleigh

Then it goes back to playing by the rules. I don't get the jumping around. People who jump up don't realize what they are playing with and how on a large scale they don't normally have the skills neccessary for the next level. They think it's only about the partner they get... but what about the partner who gets them?

big example.....

You would think that all these people on So You think you can dance and American Idol know that they're not qualified. Listen to most of their excuses. Not only do they have a misconception of themselves but they say "I promise I'll get better and grow with the experiences and challenges you present to me"

They just want to be there...don't think they even know what they'd do once they'd get there...

This might be the same thing... getting so caught up with wanting more points or to compete at a higher level....when will the madness stop???