Don't know much about history... [Archive]

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christina

03-18-2008, 01:31 PM

I could rant about this subject - and at some point there is a good chance I will (since I lack restraint). But for now, I'm curious as to two things, one is a question for everyone one, the other a question for folks like Mario and Festa, and social dancers from pre-1989.

This started with some comments on the WCS Survey Thread. One question was "who do you think has had the most impact on WCS?" I'm not calling to question those answers, but I noticed that most of the responses (myself included) were based on the last decade or so - despite this dancing being older than that. They were also decidedly competition based (either in promoters or competitors) despite this being a primarily social dance.

What really made me sad - more so than the those answers, were the folks that said they could not comment as the didn't know enough - or any - of the history to be able to comment.

Question(s) 1:

Why, as an individual dancer, do you not seek out some of the history? If you are so in love with the dance, wouldn't you want to know all there is to know about it besides the technical aspect of a weight change? Wouldn't you want to know more than a few sentences about how the dance took shape and formed, where it was danced, etc.?

__________________________________________

Many "things" site the importance of the history in order to grow.

For example (and a related one at that!):

There was a PBS documentary called THE BLUES in which the first installment discussed 1940s documentation to preserve the history of the music. There was no forcing of musicians to continue playing in imitation (in fact, direct imitation was laughed at), it was preservation simply because the folk music as it existed was dying completely as new technology emerged and effected general culture. Additionally it has become a source of inspiration for other music such as Jazz (yes, Jazz comes from blues music), Soul, R&B, Rock & Roll. The originial roots of the blues come from African rhythms and came over with slaves becoming the original blues - drums were forbidden to slaves, so they made instruments of what they could and used vocals to re-create rhythms that had long ago been established in their former culture as well as expressing themes of how they felt - these were adapted as generations became removed from those first coming over, and eventually changed with the time (i.e. the electric guitar and band of Chicago Blues compared to the acoustic soloing of Delta Blues) - but the basic structure and purpose remained/remains the same.

We talk about evolution of the dance, but evolution takes the past into consideration. The current "evolution" of WCS seems to be stumbling forward as if the past did not exist at all. (yes, there are old clips on youtube, but I'll save that digression for later). We seem to ignore the original reasons for the dances existence in favor of personal expression that seems to have nothing to do with those roots and favors competition over the original social reasonings for the dance (again, nothing wrong with competiting, it was there in the past - but in a very different form compared to what we see today)

Question(s) 2:

How important is history to West Coast Swing? Is it possible to preserve the past and evolve at the same time? Is the direction we see WCS heading a path of evolution or a complete diversion? How would one go about discovering the history of WCS with our limited and often conflicting resources?

bethany

03-18-2008, 01:46 PM

I would love to be able to say that Dean Collins had the most influence on wcs, but sadly it's changed so much from the dance style he created, so that's the reason people are listing influences from the last decade. It's not like lindy, where we search for the roots. Even Dean has said he didn't want to be linked to what wcs evolved into.

swingdj

03-18-2008, 02:48 PM

I could rant about this subject - and at some point there is a good chance I will (since I lack restraint). But for now, I'm curious as to two things, one is a question for everyone one, the other a question for folks like Mario and Festa, and social dancers from pre-1989.

This started with some comments on the WCS Survey Thread. One question was "who do you think has had the most impact on WCS?" I'm not calling to question those with an actual answer. But I was sad to see that most of the responses (myself included) were based on the last decade - despite this dancing being much older than that. They were also decidedly competition based (either in promoters or competitors) despite this being a primarily social dance.

What really made me sad - more so than the those anaswers, were the folks that said they could not comment as the didn't know enough - or any - of the history to be able to comment.

Question(s) 1:

Why, as an individual dancer, do you not seek out some of the history? If you are so in love with the dance, wouldn't you want to know all there is to know about it besides the technical aspect of a weight change? Wouldn't you want to know more than a few sentences about how the dance took shape and formed, where it was danced, etc.?

__________________________________________

Many "things" site the importance of the history in order to grow.

There was a PBS documentary called "THE BLUES" in which the first installment discussed 1940s documentation to preserve the history of the music. There was no forcing of musicians to continue playing in imitation, it was preservation simply because the folk music as it existed was dying completely. Additionally it has become a sourse of inspiration for other music such as Jazz (yes, Jazz comes from blues music), Soul, R&B, Rock & Roll. The originial roots from Africa came over and became the original blues - drums were forbidden to slaves, so that made instruments of what they could to re-create rhythms that had long ago been established in their culture - were adapted as generations became removed from those first coming over, and eventually changed with the time (i.e. the electric guitar and band of Chicago Blues compared to the acoustic soloing of Delta Blues) - but the basic structure and purpose remains the same.

We talk about evolution of the dance, but evolution takes the past into consideration. The current "evolution" of WCS seems to be stumbling forward as if the past did not exist at all. (yes, there are old clips on youtube, but I'll save that digression for later). We seem to ignore the original reasons for the dances existance in favor of personal expression that seems to have nothing to do with those roots and favors competition over the original social reasonings for the dance (again, nothing wrong with competitiong, it was there in the past - but in a very different form compared to what we see today)

Question(s) 2:

How important is history to West Coast Swing? Is it possible to preserve the past and evolve at the same time? Is the direction we see WCS heading a path of evolution or a complete diversion? How would one go about discovering the history of WCS with our limited and often conflicting resources?

Hi Christina,

Great thread...one of the things that we are going to do is get a qualified individual (i.e., Mario, Sylvia Sykes, Mary Ann Nunez, etc.) to hopefully write an article about the history of west coast swing. I too was very upset to see the majority of the WCS dancers not have a name to put down on who has had the most impact on WCS. This is also one of the reasons that Brian and company started this web site was to inform our dancers of the history of WCS.

swingdj

03-18-2008, 02:55 PM

Just to ge the ball rolling...here is an aticle on West Coast Swing from Sonny Watson's web page www.streetswing.com (http://www.streetswing.com)

WEST COAST SWING: The GREAT GRANDAUGHTER of all Swing!

West Coast Swing is the 'Official State dance of California' (http://www.streetswing.com/statednc.htm). San Diego, San Francisco and Los Angeles all argue about what city West Coast Swing originated in, however Los Angeles California area tends to win the debate.
West Coast Swing originated from an earlier dance known as the Savoy Style Lindy, which was done at the Savoy Ballroom (http://www.streetswing.com/histclub/a2savoy1.htm) in New York in the early 1930's. Although WCS was not invented by, it was indirectly spawned by a man whose name was Dean Collins, (http://www.streetswing.com/histmai2/d2collns1.htm) who also danced at the Savoy (http://www.streetswing.com/histclub/a2savoy1.htm) while living in New York.

WCS: DEAN COLLINS Collins came to California in the 1930's to get into the movie business and brought with him 'his version' of the "Savoy Style Lindy." Collins, after dancing in Hollywood for a couple years and dancing in many night clubs began dancing and competing. He would get to know some of the other local dancers, which have been said too have "not seen that style of swing before, but they liked it very much." It was alot different than what they were doing at the time (which they called the "Whip" ... different than the later "Houston Whip" WHICH IS A DESCENDANT ... to make a slightly long story short).
When Collins started winning contests everyone wanted to learn his style. Dean's partner Jewel McGowen was (http://www.streetswing.com/histmai2/d2jewel1.htm) the hottest female swing dancer who had ever "Switched" (swivel back and forth) with Dean. They made many movies apart as well as together. When Dean would be asked what style of swing he was doing he would say "there is no style, there is only Swing." He never said there is only Lindy Hop or (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3lindy.htm) West Coast or Jitterbug, etc., NEVER!, there is only swing. And being a true master of swing realized that "Swing is Swing"... period!
Collins started teaching "his version" to L.A. and soon everyone on the West Coast was doing it. Dean finally got his break and started doing many Hollywood movies (http://www.streetswing.com/swg1mov.htm) in the 1940s and 1950s. He brought many local swing dancers who he had taught this "new style" with him into these movies as well. During this time, the movies billed this dance as "Jitterbug or Rock and Roll." Many soldiers danced this version of swing in W.W. II. The soldiers and U.S.O. (http://www.streetswing.com/histclub/a2uso1.htm) took "West Coast Swing" AND OTHER FORMS OF SWING all over the world ... disguised as the newer term of Jitterbug (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3jtrbg.htm) or Rock and Roll (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3rock1.htm) (before these titles swing was known as the Lindy Hop (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3lindy.htm)). Dean past away in the mid 1980's.

WCS: THE STYLESTHE MAIN STYLES:
There were basically three styles of swing done in the movies of the time:
1) Lindy Hop,
2) West Coast Swing,
3) East Coast Swing.
Although the Sugar push is said to have existed before it was not portrayed in the other styles on film (actually it was the 'Sugar Foot' that existed before which helped give birth to this step when mixed with 'switches'.) If you see swing dancing in old 1940's / 1950's movie scenes and the (Caucasian) dancers do a "Sugar Push" you are watching them do West Coast Swing which was obviously done to faster Big Band or Rock and Roll music of the 1940s and 1950s rather than the music used today. Many dancers still love doing this faster form of West Coast we call 'WCS Flying Lindy' howeverthese dancers were NOT doing the Lindy Hop (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3lindy.htm) or Jitterbug (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3jtrbg.htm)!!! (because the music, title or Lindyites might suggest it to be so,) they were doing West Coast Swing. During the 1940's basically all swing dance styles were under an umbrella term called the Jitterbug, so we could call them West Coast Jitterbugs.

WCS: THE SLOTTHE SLOT:
The slot is not original to West Coast Swing but is strongly linked to it today. West Coast Swing, which is a strictly slotted (a 3'X6' or 3X8' rectangular dance space) which has the leader dance in place while the follower travels back and forth. This style of swing has some to say that this slot was born out of "WIDE ANGLE LENSES" not having been invented yet! (not totally true). The Directors needed to put the dancers in straight lines to get them all in the camera. However, many swing movies only had "one couple dancing" at a time and many previous movies of Whitey's Lindy Hoppers (http://www.streetswing.com/histmai2/d2wlh2.htm) will show a slot being danced ("for the camera", I believe.) This "Slot" idea was to get the profile of the dancers rather than the backs of the dancers to the camera. If the dancers rotated while dancing it would not have shown the movie-goer much dancing. This "slotted-style" eventually caught on as the norm and STAYED STRICTLY SLOTTED! when West Coast is danced socially. The film "Don't Knock the Rock" (http://www.streetswing.com/films/video/f2_dont_knock_the_rock.htm) strongly features the WCS Slot that California dancers prided themselves on by dancing on a couch, coffee table etc. Don't really know if the choreographers wanted to feature the Slotted Style or it was the dancers making a statement, but it is there as plain as day.

Yet, another story is that because Los Angeles had many small night clubs, and there was a huge migration happening in California at the time. The L.A. dancers had to squeeze together and thus maintained a "Slotted type movement" to avoid hitting each other. The two above ideas merging together would be the main reason people today dance slotted swing socially (I support this story very strongly.)

One of the most famous stories of the time was when Benny Goodman played at the Palomar Ballroom (http://www.streetswing.com/histclub/a2palmr1.htm) in Los Angeles in the early 1930's. Kids Packed the Palomar and lined up for blocks to see him play. The newspaper reported that they were "Jitterbugging in the Isles." That was the start of the Swing Era and Swing bands, the term Jitterbug and Swing dance for white America. Goodman's next stop was at the Paramount theater (http://www.streetswing.com/histclub/a2parmt1.htm) in New York, again the newspaper reported that the "Kids were Jitterbugging in the Isles to Goodman's music" (every isle I have ever seen was a slot!).

WCS: FOOTWORK!The footwork theory has been told to me many times by older swing dancers as:

1) Tap Dancing was the start of the main footwork within the African-American community early in the birth of swing. As time went on, this footwork became a stable of movement and LAID THE GROUND for the syncopation framework within the swing dance community which would be changed and modified to suit the ever changing times. Eventually this footwork and syncopation would dis -associate itself from the standard Tap Dance movements and grow into something more within the swing dance family. Some of these feet movements are still done today, while others have faded away. And as time went on ....
2) The Prostitutes; in the dance halls and night clubs on the shores of the Pacific Ocean in Long Beach and San Diego California would get get kick-backs of liquor sales which the sailors would purchase. The Prostitutes, knowing the sailors were on "short leaves" (the sailors were warned about their nightly profession) would regularly use the dance and drink idea. The sailors would get drunk on their leave and these "Ladies" would dance with them, entice them, as they got drunker, the sailors couldn't dance so well so these "Ladies" would just hold on and sexy wiggle and do sexy footwork at the end of the slot till he was ready to spend the remainder of his money behind closed doors, then they would go upstairs for ... Well, that's enuff! ... You get the idea ... he-he!. Later the ....

3) Latin Music was being born in the states and was becoming very popular. As the dancers learned Latin movement they would incorporate it into West Coast Swing. The ladies and "Pachuco's" would do what is referred to today as a Latin West Coast Swing (or Latin Swing) to slower sexier Latin (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3latin.htm) type music and incorporate Latin body and footwork movements into the dance. Since the Cha-Cha (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3cha.htm) and the Whip are of the same 8 count rhythm, it was simple to add this style of movement. During W.W.II, many men were in the service and many of the "Hot Clubs" were no longer hopping locally. However many of the Latin places were booming with all kinds of dancers and music. This gives rise to why West Coast dancers love to West Coast to Cha-Cha based music as well as the slower tempo for West Coast Swing being preferred to faster music. 100-120 b.p.m. is great for syncopation's and the body movements we see today with a preferred sexier and slower tempo of 90-125 beat per measure (bpm). Even the Lindy dancers are preferring the slower tempo of West Coast Swing.

4) The "Switches" (right & left motion or switch back and forth for the ladies) commonly done in Lindy eventually gave way to a not so simple (forward) Walk-Walk on counts 1-2, and the Coaster Step replaced the circular crossing step shuffle in the Lindy Circle and Swing Out on 3&4 plus all the patterns began to "Anchor Step" (3 steps in place) instead of Arthur Murray's (http://www.streetswing.com/histmai2/d2amur1.htm) use of the Coaster Step (a back-together-forward step) at the end of each pattern which added alot of SYNCOPATION freedom to WCS. Add the Sugar Push from the "Sugar Foot" step and a little better posture and the rest basically remains the same. West Coast Swing and Hollywood Style, generally do not use any of the Charleston (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chrlst.htm) movement or patterns that the earlier Lindy Hop (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3lindy.htm) used.

5) The Flying Lindy and Aerials: (Leg Flying Movement) and/ or Double Shuffle Speed Swing (delayed single rhythm unit) are two main components of dancing West Coast Swing to fast or Boogie Woogie (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3booge1.htm) and 'Jump Blues' music and are geared more toward this faster style of West Coast Swing. Aerials (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3adagio.htm) (air-steps) done in West Coast are done thru competition only these days and are not part of the social structure of this dance, however it is still a big part of the Hollywood style, but again, mainly becoming for competition/ exhibition purposes only there as well. The West Coasters only use AERIALS (aka: air steps) in the "Showcase" division during competition, some do them extremely well, but most (not all) of the 'Westies' are unable to do a good showcase routine due to the aerial and 'side by sides' requirements opting for the "Classic" division instead.
Other Basic WCS Information:
In one of Arthur Murray's (http://www.streetswing.com/histmai2/d2amur1.htm) dance books in the mid 1940's, Murray describes a dance called "Rock and Roll (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3rock1.htm) dancing." It names the "Under Arm Pass, the Whip and the Sugar-Push." The ladies are told to take " Two Walk Steps forward " on counts 1-2 towards the man (and not away) and describes the "Coaster Step" and "Anchor step" very clearly. Later he would call this style of "Western Swing" "Sophisticated Swing." Today there are eight basic steps that the whole dance revolves upon. They Are:
1) Closed Starter Basic and Preparatory Basic, 2) Throw-Out, 3) Under-Arm Pass, 4) Under Arm Pass with a Hand Change, 5) Side Pass, 6) Sugar Push (es), 7) Open Two Hand Tuck Turn, 8) The Basic Whip (the Whip is also the very first pattern into intermediate as well).

In the 1940's Ms. Laurie' Haile (http://www.streetswing.com/histmai2/d2haile1.htm) (d.) was hired by Mr. Murray to document the dances set in Murray's curriculum and the current dances being done around town. This was no easy task, but she did it beautifully. She knew Dean Collins and some of the other dancers and documented what they along with the Sailors in San Diego and Long Beach were doing at the time. She called it "Western Swing" which is were we get the name "West Coast Swing." However, the term Western Swing as opposed to Eastern Swing would later be confused as Country Western Swing or Western Swing Music (think Bob Wills) because of the western part in the name and Country-Western Swing was not West Coast Swing by any means. This was right about the time of Murray's book (above.)
Myrna Myron of Myron's Ballroom in Los Angeles, California coined the term "Sophisticated Swing" in a conversation to Arthur Murray describing what she saw being done around Los Angeles in the early 1950's. Although a song title with that name did exist earlier, it was not associated with swing as a dance but rather a musical style. West Coast did not look like the reckless abandon of the previous swingers and looked much more smooth, polished and stylish. Murray used this term quite frequently to describe West Coast Swing.

American Bandstand introduced a dance called the "Slop" which was just another term for West Coast Swing when done as a couples dance. Historically, the Dance Master's of America were trying to control what people danced and tried every year to create, develop and introduce new dances to the money spending public. When the music would change they would just change the name of some of the dances and re-introduce them to the public. Swing as a dance was the main dance that would be changed or another variation of the same dance was introduced such as "single rhythm" instead Of the "triple rhythm" as well as many performers trying to take credit for a new style by giving it a new name.

The Ballroom community, looking for a much more simple and mild form of swing, invented a much simpler and milder form called "Eastern Swing" (East Coast Swing (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3ecs1.htm)) in the forties. In Los Angeles in the 1940's and 50's many teachers would dance West Coast Swing as sort of an enticement. But when the potential student would ask what it was and where they could learn it, they would be told it was (East Coast) Jitterbug (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3jtrbg.htm) (as you were only allowed to teach the studio's syllabus governed by the Dance Masters Org.) and signed them up. Plus add the fact that America was racist about teaching their adorable young school children this vulgar African-American vernacular based dance of any form and could get you shot (well fired maybe) by doing so. East Coast was much easier to teach, learn and sell to parents. However, the student would think they were getting one style, but unfortunately was taught THE OTHER (See East Coast (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3ecs1.htm)) and if they could advance they were finally taught WCS privately. Many dancer's of the 1950's grew up on East Coast Swing as that was the only style of swing that was allowed to be taught in the dance studio's due to racial factors (like above) at the time as well as it being much easier to do.
During the 1960's, Television put dancing on the back burner. Most people did not have to leave their homes for an evenings entertainment as in the past. Televisions were now affordable and almost in everyone's home. Since these couples dancers were not going out and dancing and leading the way, newer dancers generally did not know what or how to do the dances of the past. In walks a dance called the "Twist (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3twist1.htm), Frug, Hully Gully etcetera" plus "dancing in the sand" at the beach would be the death blow to most structured partner dances (thanks gidget) and no one had to learn anything, just flap your arms, shake your hips or twist and shake the night away". Other freeform style dances would follow and a whole generation grew up without partner dancing. However, there were still a small group that did dance and kept it alive, these dancers formed Swing dance clubs and would continue to pass it on when they could.

Then in the 1970's, Disco (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3disco1.htm) became the rage and these Swing Dancers were now dancing to new Disco (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3disco1.htm) music trying to entice younger members. These new dancers of the 1970s did not know of the earlier dances and copied some of the Swing and Salsa dancers that they saw or remembered. (The Hustle (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3hustl1.htm) is a mix of Latin (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3latin.htm) and EC Swing.) Then a few years later, Country Western music and dancing gained popularity and people were now confusing "Western Swing (WCS)" with Country Western dancing or Country Western Swing. It took many dance teachers to call it "West Coast Swing" to veer away from any Country Western association, however, rare, the term West Coast Swing in print was used as far back as the mid 1940s to late 1950's. There are some who claim to have named the dance over the years, but there is some printed and dated documentation that exists prior to their claims to discredit them. For a time many Country Western establishments outlawed West Coast Swing being done in the clubs (only a few dancers were doing it at the time) ... as being to Sexy and to much Attitude along with stating it NOT being Country. However after awhile everyone wanted to do it except for the die hard C/w dancers.

When the music (Big Band) died in the 1950's and Rock and Roll (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3rock1.htm) music became popular, swing dancers had to adapt and swing to Rock and Roll music. Then the 1960's came along and the Twist (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3twist1.htm) ... again they adapted to the music. Then the Disco beats of the 1970's and they adapted again ... where as today we no longer adapt ... we embrace the new danceable music. "We loved Swing dancing and would do it no matter what music was played." We we're not leaving the dance just because the music changed. Today, these things make it one of the most versatile dances you can learn. Today's dancers tend to like the different rhythms and syncopations of the different music styles to dance too and play with which helps keep them dancing all night long. West Coaster's generally do not like dancing to live music, (Blues being the exception) as the musicians/singers are usually not versatile enough or do not want to play all the different styles of music (Latin, Funk, Pop, Motown, Soul, Disco, R&B, Blues.) Understandably, they tend to play only a specific style and tend to not play other musician's songs or styles we tend to love, but these dancers do respect all musicians, and we show our appreciation by purchasing CD's and raving about their songs.

West Coast Swing is still evolving. Today, it is not similar to its ancestor - Savoy Style Lindy (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3lindy.htm) at all. It does not have a certain dress style, usually just casual dress of the day. However, it does tend to be more modern in clothes. It is not music dependent, (meaning that) IT CAN BE DANCED TO ANY 4/4 time music available. The basic music for West Coast Swing is generally the Blues (http://www.streetswing.com/1swgmus.htm) which, is generally made up of swung eighth's (a type of shuffle rhythm.) However many dancers also like dancing to the more up-tempo rhythms of Funk, Disco, Jazz, Soul, Motown, Beach, Techno, Rap, Pop (http://www.streetswing.com/2modswg.htm), as well as Country (http://www.streetswing.com/4cwswng.htm), Big Band Swing, Retro, and even some Latin. As long as they can count it and feel the "swing" or pulse of the Down and Upbeats and is basically of good rhythmic sound it becomes a song you can dance West Coast Swing to (however, it is not swing music). Lessor trained dancers usually can only hear one type of rhythm which is usually based on the dance they are best at. There is no rule written that a particular song has to have a particular dance and vice-a-versa but there are always some who UNSUCCESSFULLY try to convince us of this. Although many songs definitely have a style of dance in mind when they were written and are not crossovers, meaning that, the particular dance style should be done to that particular song (example: Hernando's Hideaway=Tango, not another dance.)

You can basically dance West Coast almost anywhere, almost any place and at any time with almost anyone, any way you want to do it (classic, contemporary, old skool etc). Once you learn the basics, you are never told, that isn't original style-Don't do it!. West Coast Swing is a dancers dance, it's a living dance, meaning, that this dance will always change to challenge you, with many dance styles / movements inbred into the dance. There are over 5000 documented patterns and more are added every year. West Coast Swing has added alot of the old hustle patterns (Sw-ustle ) as well. Carolina Shag (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3shagca.htm) footwork is being added to its already extensive list of WCS footwork patterns (Sw-ag. ) The Lindy dancers did do this as well in their day by adding the dances of the Charleston (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chrlst.htm), Shimmy (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3shimy.htm), Black Bottom (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3blkbtm.htm), Baltimore Buzz (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3bltbuz.htm), Grind, Mule, Apache (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3aposh.htm), Texas Tommy (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3tex1.htm), Mooch and Sugar to the Breakaway (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3brkawy.htm) etc. of DAYS GONE BY (To bad they did not have Hustle (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3hustl1.htm), Disco, Lambada, Dirty Dancing, Mambo (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3mambo.htm), Latin (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3latin.htm), Cha-Cha (http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3cha.htm), Hip-Hop dances etc. to add to the Lindy back in 1927 .... Oops, that would make it WCS :). Best of all, because of the tempo, you can dance West Coast Swing all night long with young and old alike and not have a heart attack. All forms of swing can be done fast, INCLUDING WCS, but only one can be done real slow and still look and feel great ... WCS!.

Because of the music style variation the West Coast Swingers dance to, this dance is always under attack from the "Purists." However, West Coast Swing is a "Living Dance", meaning it is an old dance form constantly evolving, growing and changing to the music style of the ever changing times, (but we will never leave the Blues) with the 'old skool classic style' being highly sought after so as the dancer possesses great roots (fundamentals/basics) in the dance, rather than just having a 'temporary-contemporary' style that may change or be dead and gone next year. The two main styles of West Coast are "Classic W.C. Swing (pulsing down) and "Funky or Contemporary W.C. Swing" (pulsing up) with the basic steps being exactly the same, just done to different types of music which gives a different feel and look. Without a good understanding of the 'Classic Style', you can not master the other. Although teenagers are encouraged to try, and some have become fantastic paid performers, movie, TV dancers and dance contestants, this dance unfortunately is mainly for adults.

A couple of years ago (around 1997), the Retro-Swingers started to use an the old term called "Hollywood Style Lindy" before they realized it was basically Classic West Coast Swing. They now just call it Hollywood Style Swing with the term being coined by Erik and Sylvia Robeson. This Hollywood Style Swing was actually the original form of West Coast Swing, as done by Dean Collins (http://www.streetswing.com/histmai2/d2collns1.htm) and Jewel McGowen (http://www.streetswing.com/histmai2/d2jewel1.htm) and others of days gone by. Many of the old time West Coast Swingers who are still around today have helped them with this "authentic style" which is really very kewl. However, when they try to turn Hollywood into today's West Coast they come up a little short (however it is very workable.) The Westie has to dance very basic to low intermediate style/steps with the Hollywood Style dancer until they get the idea, then they rock!.

In competition, West Coast Swing has become a highly technical dance, that is not very friendly to the average competition dancer, in other words, they devour their young!. The competitor needs to put many long hours and finances into the competition arena and the rewards are few, (except for the reward of looking so damn good!). On the social side however, it's not near as serious except for being taught like you are a future champion dancer (you could be the next champ-right!) during the dance lessons. When learning this dance, the dancer needs to keep a very open mind to succeed or they will fail as the dance uses many different and varied techniques. There is many levels of progression when learning. Plus, there's not a better group of people YOUNG or OLD to be found. Once you learn, you will have many friends for life as well as being able to dance to all kinds of music, anywhere, anytime with anyone.

Many folks ask what style of swing (Jitterbug) is best, West Coast, East Coast, Whip, Push, Lindy, Shag etc. However, there is no best style. The best style would depend on what type of music you are dancing to at the time, geographic's, the theme of the dance being held, the speed in which the music is played and the dance knowledge of you and or your partner. If you're partner only knows one style of swing, then their style would be the best style to dance with them at that time. If they only know one style they usually will declare that the style they know is the best style above all others and usually will make derogatory statements about other styles for many varied reasons.

Swing (aka: Jitterbug) is a wonderful dance form in all it's versions that fits all types of music, Personalities, Finances etc. Calling yourself a swing dancer means you can at least do the basics in many forms of swing and a few well. So learn to swing dance whatever style, you're unique and your dances should be varied and your style should represent your knowledge of dance that other, newer dancers (and they are the majority) don't posses and not limiting yourself to only one. However you will eventually find you like them all and soon you will understand the importance of them all, as well as understand why there are different styles to begin with. So enjoy them and mainly smile, laugh and have fun. ... ... Copyright: Sonny Watson!

christina

03-18-2008, 02:58 PM

It was one of the reasons I started Swing Dancer Magazine as well.

I personally am a bit of a history buff and have been doing a lot of research on swing/jazz - the music and dance. It's facinating stuff and gives me a greater appreciation of the how's and why's. I feel that much more connected to the music.

I don't expect everyone to be as interested in the history as me - but it is an important part of the dance. Learning proper technique to an attitude spin is all well and fine - but its just surface material.

As Bethany mentioned - Dean Collins - I am floored when I talk with WCS dancers who've never heard of him or have never seen his clips on youTube. The connection to WCS in the 80s is astounding and you can't claim what he does is sloppy or so unevolved compared to what we do now.

I really hope this thread starts some discussion - maybe inspire people to learn more. - I do worry the viewer count will go up with little commentary.

swingdj

03-18-2008, 03:08 PM

swingdj

03-18-2008, 03:12 PM

Here is a link on YouTube with Dean Collins dancing on the Steve Allen show in 1983...if you look close the couple on the far left is Lance Shermoen and Mary Ann Nunez!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWQvZ0bbl4c

christina

03-18-2008, 03:26 PM

I just started another thread for actual video and history which included that clip.

BTW, That clip started an interview with Mary Ann and her start as a dancer: http://swing-dancer.com/page.php?62

This thread was more my questioning peoples reasonings and the theory behind why we should know the history of the dance. I'm still curious as to why some people don't care about the history yet others think it's important.

bethany

03-18-2008, 04:35 PM

Victor, another valuable resource on the history of California dance is Peter Loggins. I have more contact info for him, but here's one of the websites.

http://www.caljazzdance.com/home.html

Dima

03-18-2008, 05:03 PM

Victor, I've seen this article from Sonny's page before, and while it educates about the history of WCS, it doesn't mention anyone except Dean Collins and a few of his contemporaries, so it doesn't really help you give a direct answer to your question about who had the most influence.

jon

03-18-2008, 05:09 PM

This thread was more my questioning peoples reasonings and the theory behind why we should know the history of the dance. I'm still curious as to why some people don't care about the history yet others think it's important.

Most dancers just want to dance and enjoy themselves, for them history has no utility. It draws people who actually feel a connection to the culture in which that history is imbedded, or people who are so fascinated by the dance that the penumbra effect of their interest includes related material. And there's something of a positive feedback effect in that WCS has so much abandoned its roots, that there isn't much value in going back to those sources to draw inspiration for today. If frex the major pros and events actually made a point of respecting the past, that could set an expectation more people would follow.

BTW, I have heard enough people who actually are educated in the history of other dance forms comment negatively on the streetswing.com content re their dance, that I would be very, very cautious in assuming anything written there to be accurate.

WestieTash

03-18-2008, 05:29 PM

Christina,

I think the reason most of us weren't able to answer the question has to do with the fact that it's just a hobby for most of us.

When I start a new activity, I start it because I saw it and liked it. I didn't start WCS because I had an interest in history. I like to dance, saw Bryan and Lisa Spivey dancing it, and decided I'd found my new activity.

I wouldn't expect someone who got into this dance as a way to lose weight to care about the history.

I don't expect someone who began taking classes as a way to expand his/her social circle to know about the history of the dance.

I WOULD, however, expect teachers/pros to care about and know the history of WCS.

As an earlier poster stated, the dance has changed sooooo much in the past decade, it's quite difficult to name the one person who has changed the dance. Each week, I see videos of past competitions, and sometimes I'm shocked at what I see on screen when I see that the comp was only 15 years ago. I can't believe how things have changed.

Happy Swinging!!

swingdj

03-18-2008, 05:51 PM

Most dancers just want to dance and enjoy themselves, for them history has no utility. It draws people who actually feel a connection to the culture in which that history is imbedded, or people who are so fascinated by the dance that the penumbra effect of their interest includes related material. And there's something of a positive feedback effect in that WCS has so much abandoned its roots, that there isn't much value in going back to those sources to draw inspiration for today. If frex the major pros and events actually made a point of respecting the past, that could set an expectation more people would follow.

BTW, I have heard enough people who actually are educated in the history of other dance forms comment negatively on the streetswing.com content re their dance, that I would be very, very cautious in assuming anything written there to be accurate.

Nobody is saying the the information from www.streetswing.com (http://www.streetswing.com) is accurate or not...it is however, information....not many people seem to agree on the histoy of where WCS evolved...hopefully, this thread will start some conversation from the elite Po's that have signed up to Westie Wire.

CALI DOLL

03-18-2008, 06:41 PM

Christina,

I think the reason most of us weren't able to answer the question has to do with the fact that it's just a hobby for most of us.

When I start a new activity, I start it because I saw it and liked it. I didn't start WCS because I had an interest in history. I like to dance, saw Bryan and Lisa Spivey dancing it, and decided I'd found my new activity.

I wouldn't expect someone who got into this dance as a way to lose weight to care about the history.

I don't expect someone who began taking classes as a way to expand his/her social circle to know about the history of the dance.

I WOULD, however, expect teachers/pros to care about and know the history of WCS.

I agree 100%! Admittedly, I don't know much about the history of the dance. I recall being told the history (during my very 1st WCS lesson in December 2006), but that data left my brain as quickly as it entered.

That's not to say I have no interest in learning it, I just haven't made the effort. I'm too busy taking lessons and social dancing. :D

swingdj

03-19-2008, 03:55 AM

SHORTYJOY

03-19-2008, 04:46 AM

WestieTash

03-19-2008, 10:14 AM

I can understand where your coming from but if a hobby becomes a passion like WCS does for most people...than you should at the very least try to get some information the history of the dance that went from hobby to passion....don't you think???

Which is why I'm starting to learn it. :D

As it relates to this forum, even though I'm starting to learn the roots of the dance, I didn't want to stick my foot in my mouth or show my ignorance by answering the "who has had the greatest effect" question in your survey. (I have since answered, and I think it's a plausible answer.)

bethany

03-19-2008, 11:33 AM

I'm trying to remember, was that the post that said Arthur Murray was the greatest influence in wcs? Because anyone who waters down a street dance, which wcs started out as in the Cali dance community as "western swing" was danced in the clubs for years prior to the likes of Arthur, isn't a positive influence in my book. Just my opinion.

christina

03-19-2008, 11:45 AM

But the question wasn't about a positive influence, just who had the greatest influence. Despite being negative, Arthur Murray did have a big influence on the dance.

WestieTash - thanks for explainnig your point of view - it's totally understandable that people get involved in WCS for hobby reasons or to loose weight and as such wouldn't know much, if any, history nor be interested in learning. My personal believe is that we have individual reasons for doing this dance and our level of interest relates to that;as a result, I believe strongly in a community level interest in the history rather than on an individual level. Other's may just as strongly disagree with me that it should be at the individual level or not important at all.

I'm glad we know why you, and may like you, originally left that question blank. There are others, however, that have been in this community a long time and are regular competitors and teachers who don't know the history or care to learn. Hopefully we'll hear their side as well.

-festa-

03-21-2008, 03:55 PM

Something bugs me when we discuss the roots of west coast swing. Dean Collins is attributed to creating a new style of swing dancing that took California by storm. It was his version, they say, of Savoy Style swing. Undoubtedly Dean Collins had a huge impact on our dance and no one has more respect for him than me. But what is being overlooked here I think is he was simply doing good old basic Lindy Hop.

New York, where the dance was invented, I might add, had a style of lindy that was magnificent. It was smooth as glass, footwork driven and the followers were upright and on straight legs--and ONLY rocked back in a closed position. I know this because I am progeny from that very same generation. I grew up watching a few of the most amazing dancers letting loose after too many Manhattans. The dancers that hopped were the bad dancers, they loved to say. The good dancers aspired to smoothness. Let us remember that Dean Collins came from New Jersey and was simply doing good ol' lindy hop--GOOD lindy hop.

The closest thing I see today to original social (operative word) lindy hop is/was Hollywood style. Which is an eyelash away from original WCS. But now I understand they are teaching Hollywood style on bent knees.

Jerry Wang

03-25-2008, 07:10 PM

My reason for not answering the question in the survey, was that it was asking who had the most influence in WCS which I found a bit challenging since there are alot of people past and present I felt all contributed to the growth of the dance and its culture.

As to knowing the history and origins of WCS, I admit I haven't been active in finding out. I do believe knowing the history of our dance is important since it helps one appreciate the dance even more. However, I found there isn't a central source but a scattering of sources on WCS's origins and roots and all with differing views. But I will read on occasion what I happen to encounter online as well as listen to varying perspectives from pros and long time dancers on their experiences. Currently like many, I've been focused on improving my dancing as well as enjoying the social scene.

chandra

04-07-2008, 06:46 PM

I suppose Ill be the odd man (woman) out on this board, and say that honestly, I dont really care about the history too much.

It doesnt affect me, from day to day. It doesnt affect me when I do a Jack and Jill. It doesnt affect me when I take a private, or when I strive to better my dance. If someone is teaching me a technique that is valid for a historical reason, they can tell me about it...

Thats not to say Im completely uninterested. Its just the lack of agreement on the history makes research frustrating. Being so NOT a history buff, it didnt take much detterment to make me give up my search.

I can say, I dont think Im that negatively affected going through dancing life, not knowing the ins and outs of westie history. :D

CALI DOLL

04-09-2008, 02:10 PM

whipdancer

04-23-2008, 02:03 AM

My knowledge of the history of WCS is limited (but I don't claim to dance WCS). However, I am an avid fan of this family of dance and of it's history. I do watch and listen and learn. I think that without the history of the dance as a point of reference we will eventually lose the dance itself (an ongoing discussion even now).

I once posted on the sad state of WCS (after attending Grand Nationals in '07). I was so impressed with the respect the Shag community pays to it's heritage. I was equally dismayed by the lack of just plain courtesy on the part of the WCS flag-bearers at that event.

I'm sorry, but when you abandon your past - you lose where you have come from. You lose the essence of what you are doing. And that is exactly what is happening with WCS now. It is losing it's identity because so many of the leaders in the community haven't made it a point to stress the importance of the history of the dance.

There is an instructor in town who is quite popular. She teaches what she thinks is cool and will impress her students. But she has also told me that if he wasn't making money teaching WCS, she'd be teaching something else. She isn't worried about history. Her attachment to this dance goes no further than the paycheck she can draw from it. So her students will have inferior instruction. Her students are also prime examples (IMO) of moving away from lead/follow to two people who are dancing while holding hands.

The good news is that I've met an increasing number of young pro's who are interested in the history of the dance. They think it's important enough a part of what they do that they do learn it.

dncndjrob

04-23-2008, 02:33 PM

One picture being worth a thousand words (or in this case one video), Thumbs Up Video has a DVD for sale titled, US Open Swing Dance Championships 20th Anniversay Collection.

It contains 19 years of the winning Showcase and Classic routines starting in 1983 with Lance Shermoen and MaryAnn Nunez and finishing in 2001 with Jordan and Tatiana winning Classic, and Heidi and Benji winning Showcase. These are not video clips ... these are videos of the entire routines.

It is quite an education to be able to actually watch WCS evolve at the top competetive level. For those of us that have spent a bunch of years chasing this passion (Sheila and I jumped on board in the early 90's) it's a nostagic look at our own interaction with the dance ... a year by year notebook of dance patterns and dancer's styles developing, as well as a look (sometimes humerous) at clothing and costume styles through the years.

If you're looking for some WCS history, this DVD is a must have.

-rob

www.robandsheiladance.com

Steve Pastor

04-09-2009, 07:17 PM

Most influential person would have to be Lauré Haile who described the dance, then known as Western Swing in the 1950s. She was National Dance Director, and an instructor of teachers, and sold her Dance Notebooks apparently across the country. One of them was owned by a woman in Rockville, Maryland. (Western Swing was just one of the dances in these notebooks.)
Skippy Blair, who, along with others, learned to teach the dance around 53/54didn't learn directly from Lauré, although Lauré was around.
And there's another nominee for "most influential person" - Skippy Blair, who is still actively teaching! and is active in the Golden State Dance Teachers Association.

I've been looking into this dance for going on three years now, initially concentrating on "the original music".
Why am I interested in this?
Because so many people seem to have just made stuff up. And frankly, some of it didn't make sense to me.

This is an old thread, so we'll see if anyone is still interested.